Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), J. Brent Walker
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000246A
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00:22 Welcome, to the Liberty Insider.
00:24 This is a program bringing you news, views 00:26 and discussion on up-to-date religious liberty events 00:29 around the world. 00:30 My name is Lincoln Steed editor of Liberty Magazine 00:34 and my guest on the program is Brent Walker, 00:37 executive director of the Baptist Joint Committee 00:39 for Religious Freedom. 00:41 Welcome. 00:42 Thank you, Lincoln. And glad to be here. 00:43 We've a lot of context. 00:45 We've done other programs before. 00:46 Yes, yes. 00:47 And I'm looking forward this discussion 00:48 because this is something which just comes up 00:50 over and over again "religion in the public schools." 00:54 You know, it's, it's very important 00:57 because every-- not everybody 00:58 but there are most families they have children 01:01 and as the next generation and we welcome inculcating value 01:04 and many children go to public schools. 01:07 And that's exactly why we have 01:08 so many religious liberty church state conflicts. 01:11 Because you have the government making these-- 01:14 And it's worth remembering and I'm sure 01:16 you've brought this up before but its not that long ago 01:18 that religion was the sphere of the church. 01:21 The state is fairly late into the piece. 01:23 Right, right. 01:24 And we've accepted that now but we're not comfortable 01:27 with the schools/the government projecting religious values 01:32 and particulars in particular. 01:33 And certainly not indoctrinating or proselytizing. 01:37 Religious in particular, doctrine and facts. 01:39 I mean, the school officials can be people of faith 01:42 and nice people in support but how they use 01:45 that position of authority to, to teach the children. 01:49 I think it's a very important point. 01:50 Right, and in fact, going back to one of prior, prior lives 01:53 when I was editing a drug education journal 01:55 I use to often go into public schools. 01:58 And I have spoken to many teachers dedicated Christians 02:02 who told me that they saw it as their Christian duty. 02:04 It was their missionary endeavor of their life 02:08 to be in that context guiding young people 02:11 but of course they have got to be careful 02:13 that they're not abusing that role 02:16 and becoming a surrogate for government to, 02:18 to push their religious particulars. 02:20 But you know the Bible talks about leaven 02:22 or you know you're like salt. 02:24 May be it's a better word, salt in an environment. 02:27 Now I think Christian teachers make all the difference. 02:30 Yes, and, and modulus values but, 02:32 but not imposed them upon the students over 02:35 whom they have custody by law, 02:38 you know as we're agents of the state. 02:40 You know, lot of people will say 02:41 "you know God's been kicked out of the public schools." 02:44 But it isn't true. 02:45 But it's not true, you know, 02:46 as my prayer instructor James Dunn used to say 02:48 "God almighty has a perfect attendance record." 02:51 "He has never missed roll calls single time." 02:53 And that's true I mean how presumptuous 02:55 to think that we can kick God out of any place. 02:58 What we have taken out is government sponsored 03:01 religious exercises-- 03:04 very much not the case, as to the students. 03:08 The students can on a voluntary basis-- 03:12 Exercise there religion, there religion, 03:14 talk about, talk about religion as long as 03:16 this is not disruptive and as long as they don't impose 03:19 on the rights of other students not to be religious 03:21 but there is so many different ways 03:23 that religion can't properly be accommodated 03:26 on the part of students voluntarily, heartfelt religion 03:29 but not the imposition of government sponsorship of that. 03:34 Sure you've given a good outline 03:35 what I was thinking while you were talking 03:37 and its one that troubles me the most. 03:39 One of the areas of contention is praying at football games. 03:44 And I just want to-- I have made comments 03:46 I think on this program about it but as a Christian leading out 03:49 in religious liberty does that trouble you, 03:52 there's a, there's a constitutional question 03:54 but just from a Christian perspective 03:57 it's not that its, its an anti God activity 04:00 but its not in particularly religious environment. 04:04 The hustle and the bustle on the head cracking business of, 04:07 and the profanity shouting coaches 04:09 and all the rest why the big burden 04:12 that there be a prayer before a football game? 04:13 Well, I think it's a, it's perfectly, 04:15 it's perfectly legitimate to pray. 04:17 Oh, people have the right to. For peoples safety-- 04:19 But not in a public school environment. 04:20 Sportsmanship and all of that. 04:23 Privately individually I think we'd even think corporately. 04:27 I do have some problems with having anyone 04:30 get up in front of the state control microphone, 04:34 be it a student or not to, to use the offices of government 04:38 to impose a prayer on the people that have come. 04:41 In fact, the strength code is so ruled. 04:43 They have well, even the pledge of legends 04:46 which means pretty innocuous to most people. 04:48 Yeah. 04:49 They felt that this is something that young people can't 04:51 and shouldn't be required to participate in or even, 04:54 it's in the last determination they shouldn't even be required 04:58 to be present if it's embarrassing to them. 05:00 Right. All right. 05:02 So yeah the basic divide is government knows student choice. 05:07 If it's the students who expressing religion 05:10 generally speaking its okay but if it's 05:12 the government expressing it then, no. 05:14 The student led football prayer is kind of be in between 05:18 because the government is putting that student 05:20 and giving the, given the captive audience 05:22 and the microphone and yes. 05:25 Absolutely and sometimes it comes up in, 05:28 in pre-game hurdles post-game hurdles 05:32 with the players themselves get together in praying. 05:35 And as long as they're doing it voluntarily that's fine. 05:38 You know they may have some problem with Matthews 6 05:44 or Jesus says "go in your closet and pray." 05:47 Not out in the middle of the football field 05:49 but from the constitutional point of view there is nothing, 05:52 there is nothing wrong with it. 05:53 Now if the, if the coach comes in 05:56 and propose to lead it I think there's a there's a problem 05:59 because then you have got that state sponsorship 06:02 in the religious exercise. 06:03 I'll ask you this question without even knowing 06:07 which way you go but the other day 06:09 when I was taking my daughter to school she goes 06:11 to a public school. 06:12 She is twelve. 06:14 And, as we arrived here 06:16 were about a 100 kids around the flagpole praying. 06:20 And I'd heard about that its not to gather around the flagpole. 06:23 See you at flagpole, see you at the pole. 06:26 And I don't I have meaning to investigate 06:28 but what you take on that it struck me 06:31 that it probably is teacher led. 06:34 But I don't know. 06:36 Usually, they're not and should not be. 06:38 Well, I saw a couple of teachers. 06:39 As long as the students are there 06:41 teachers can be in the area for keep order and so forth. 06:46 But they should not participate in the circle 06:48 nor should parents should be a complete student initiative 06:54 student led moment of prayer. 06:57 I think the courts have upheld and I'm okay with it. 07:00 I wonder theologically a little bit 07:03 about gathering around the flagpole. 07:07 Well, that's-- 07:08 Are you praying to God or you're praying to Caesar. 07:10 I don't know if that signals you just know how I think that. 07:13 Sometimes in that state. That's where its. 07:15 Yeah, may be, more-- 07:16 It's Christian nation building. 07:17 Yeah, may be there a more appropriate place on campus 07:19 beside the flagpole to offer your prayers 07:22 but from constitutional point of view its nothing, 07:25 nothing wrong with that. 07:27 Yeah. And I was gonna throw in a story 07:29 that might suggest later but, but I'm presuming you 07:34 to agree with me that, that there is a serous issue of play. 07:37 You don't want the government through the school 07:39 administering it but I think its moved in a way 07:43 that at least a major problem now are over vigilant 07:47 teachers restricting students from expressing their faith. 07:50 Yeah, that's definitely a problem 07:52 but can, can I pull something out and look at it here. 07:55 Absolutely. 07:56 I wrote an article back in August 07:58 right before the school started and published it in our magazine 08:01 reported from the capital and lot of people fed back 08:05 with some real appreciation for it. 08:07 Where I, I talked about exactly what you're talking about 08:10 and the many things that the students, 08:12 students ought to be able to do on campus 08:15 without pretty much with impunity. 08:17 And let, let me just take off a few of these. 08:21 "Students may pray alone or in a group silently 08:24 or even out loud as long as its voluntary non disruptive 08:27 and respectful of the rights of other students 08:29 not to participate. 08:33 This would include see you at pole prayer events." 08:35 That we talked about a minute ago. 08:36 "Before classes start and silent prayers aftermath 08:40 test begin which was always unanswered prayer 08:43 in my case in the math class. 08:46 Students may form and lead religious clubs 08:49 in secondary schools before and after class. 08:53 If other non-curriculum related groups are allowed 08:55 to meet outside adults may not lead 08:58 or regularly attend the Bible clubs 09:00 and teachers may be present only to monitor the meetings. 09:03 Students may just play and communicate 09:05 religious message on their clothing or orally in a same way 09:08 that other messages are allowed. 09:10 Generally they may wear religious garbs 09:13 such as yarmulke or headscarves. 09:16 Students can distribute religious material 09:18 and literature under the same rules 09:20 that other material may be distributed 09:23 subject to reasonable time place 09:25 and minor restrictions such as requiring the material 09:28 to be placed on a table rather than actively being handed out. 09:32 Students may speak to and even try to persuade 09:34 other students on religious topics including inviting them 09:38 to participate in religious services and events." 09:42 Could I think that one is often challenged? 09:44 Well, yes, but here is the here is the limitation on 09:47 "such speech and invitations cannot be allowed 09:49 to turn into religious harassment." 09:52 Yeah. 09:53 You know "a no thanks must in the conversation." 09:55 So yeah, that can definitely be abused. 09:58 "Students are allowed to include religious themes 10:00 and ideas in their homework and school work assignments 10:04 as long as those religious references are remained 10:07 to the topic assigned. 10:10 Students may be taught about religion in the classroom." 10:14 And they should be. Yes. 10:15 Because it's great dignity about the particulars 10:17 of not just Christianity but all faiths side. 10:20 Teachings-- 10:21 I wish there was more knowledge of these, these positions. 10:25 Yeah, I mean abysmal, abysmal ignorance 10:27 but yeah "teaching about religion, 10:29 you know, where it naturally arises in, in the curriculum." 10:32 Sometimes you can have separate courses 10:35 in comparative religion Bible literature 10:37 that kind of thing can be had. 10:42 So there is there is a whole range of opportunities 10:45 to expose students to religious truths 10:50 and history with an educational purpose in mind not an idea 10:54 to convert them to any particular reasons. 10:56 Yeah, that's a good list. 10:58 There're dozens of these. 10:59 And you have covered there 11:00 some of the problems that we have. 11:02 I think there is a distinct lack of information being given 11:05 to the students and from what I read of 11:08 many fundraising letters from whole array of 11:11 mostly conservative religious groups they seize on, 11:15 on, on the admittedly many cases of students restricted 11:20 and make a celebrated cause out of it. 11:23 These are individual and fractions 11:25 but the law is very plain isn't it, 11:27 that the students are allowed to do that. 11:29 And I seem to remember during the Clinton administration 11:32 they put out a white booklet I think it wasn't 11:34 to call a white but anyhow 11:35 it was a 32-64 pages of that size, 11:40 documenting what you can do in the public school environment. 11:43 The freedom of religion of the young person had. 11:45 Actually it started out as an effort 11:47 on the part of religious groups Baptist Joint Committee, 11:49 Seventh-day Adventist and others to, 11:51 to try to catalog all of the in greater details 11:55 that I have done it in the short article 11:56 but all the catalog that of things that can occur 12:01 without violating the principle of church state separation. 12:04 And we all agreed on 12:05 and then took it the Clinton administration. 12:07 And said "oh this is great." 12:08 In fact President Clinton had a special ceremony receiving it 12:14 and then you might have been there. 12:16 Well, it's before my time-- 12:17 I don't know but then he gave it 12:19 to the department of education the secretary Riley 12:22 distributed that product to all of the school boards 12:25 around the country. 12:26 So I mean they have it in their hands they may not read it 12:28 or do it but the information has been put out there 12:31 so that they should know. 12:32 And now of course that that was 15-18 years ago 12:35 now it's online and you can download. 12:37 But I just I just get the feeling 12:39 and I got it well before as with Liberty Magazine 12:41 that the schools are gone shy 12:43 that there is trouble to be had in this area. 12:45 And so they greatly air on the side they want 12:47 to allow the student to say anything. 12:49 Not because they want to restrict the students 12:51 but misguidedly they think you know 12:54 if we stop all of that no religion, no religion we're safe 12:58 And so we need simultaneously uphold the separation of church 13:01 and state but remind students 13:04 and through the parents through them. 13:08 That yes, you have the right to express yourself religiously 13:11 even politicians and just a change in the topic of it. 13:14 But, you know, we had an article from Florida-- 13:16 oh, no not from Florida from Hawaii 13:17 I think where the individual legislators where want 13:20 to go express their faith in their office environment 13:23 they had that right. 13:24 You know that's not an improper melding of church and state. 13:28 That's just the right you have as an individual 13:30 to speak about your faith. 13:32 Yeah. 13:33 And I don't have any, you know, 13:37 huge stories to tell about my two children in public school 13:40 but I know they have come at different times 13:42 and the teachers have sort to signaled 13:43 to them that's not might be best to talk about religion 13:47 or to write a paper on it. 13:49 And I think that's unfortunate. 13:50 I don't think it's done with any malice at all 13:53 but its misinformation even through the school system. 13:56 And then I know that there are some areas 13:58 deep in the Bible they'll probably mostly 14:00 with the whole culture expects that. 14:04 And so its sort of all melds together and you know 14:06 they have the minister coming and take meetings in the class 14:10 and so they don't even comprehend it. 14:13 And that could be solved slowly but it's not a legal problem 14:16 it's a societal misunderstanding 14:18 of the separation of church and state. 14:19 This is the majority or happy there is no problem. 14:22 Yeah. 14:24 Well, I sympathize with school administrator I understand. 14:28 Oh, yeah difficult time. 14:30 They most of time do a good job. 14:32 We'll be back after a short break 14:34 to continue our discussion, stay with us. |
Revised 2014-12-17