Welcome, to the Liberty Insider.
00:00:22.75\00:00:24.47
This is a program
bringing you news, views
00:00:24.50\00:00:26.44
and discussion on up-to-date
religious liberty events
00:00:26.47\00:00:29.52
around the world.
00:00:29.55\00:00:30.87
My name is Lincoln Steed
editor of Liberty Magazine
00:00:30.90\00:00:33.99
and my guest on the
program is Brent Walker,
00:00:34.02\00:00:37.10
executive director of
the Baptist Joint Committee
00:00:37.13\00:00:39.17
for Religious Freedom.
00:00:39.20\00:00:41.20
Welcome.
00:00:41.23\00:00:42.26
Thank you, Lincoln.
And glad to be here.
00:00:42.29\00:00:43.82
We've a lot of context.
00:00:43.85\00:00:45.01
We've done
other programs before.
00:00:45.04\00:00:46.45
Yes, yes.
00:00:46.48\00:00:47.51
And I'm looking
forward this discussion
00:00:47.54\00:00:48.80
because this is
something which just comes up
00:00:48.83\00:00:50.18
over and over again "religion
in the public schools."
00:00:50.21\00:00:54.77
You know, it's,
it's very important
00:00:54.80\00:00:57.06
because every-- not everybody
00:00:57.09\00:00:58.29
but there are most
families they have children
00:00:58.32\00:01:01.60
and as the next generation
and we welcome inculcating value
00:01:01.63\00:01:04.63
and many children
go to public schools.
00:01:04.66\00:01:07.50
And that's exactly why we have
00:01:07.53\00:01:08.93
so many religious
liberty church state conflicts.
00:01:08.96\00:01:11.21
Because you have the
government making these--
00:01:11.24\00:01:13.97
And it's worth
remembering and I'm sure
00:01:14.00\00:01:15.97
you've brought this up
before but its not that long ago
00:01:16.00\00:01:18.86
that religion was
the sphere of the church.
00:01:18.89\00:01:21.09
The state is fairly
late into the piece.
00:01:21.12\00:01:23.41
Right, right.
00:01:23.44\00:01:24.76
And we've accepted that
now but we're not comfortable
00:01:24.79\00:01:27.96
with the schools/the government
projecting religious values
00:01:27.99\00:01:32.63
and particulars in particular.
00:01:32.66\00:01:33.88
And certainly not
indoctrinating or proselytizing.
00:01:33.91\00:01:37.23
Religious in
particular, doctrine and facts.
00:01:37.26\00:01:39.44
I mean, the school
officials can be people of faith
00:01:39.47\00:01:42.45
and nice people in
support but how they use
00:01:42.48\00:01:45.81
that position of authority
to, to teach the children.
00:01:45.84\00:01:49.40
I think it's a
very important point.
00:01:49.43\00:01:50.91
Right, and in fact, going back
to one of prior, prior lives
00:01:50.94\00:01:53.92
when I was editing a
drug education journal
00:01:53.95\00:01:55.83
I use to often go
into public schools.
00:01:55.86\00:01:58.28
And I have spoken to many
teachers dedicated Christians
00:01:58.31\00:02:02.06
who told me that they saw
it as their Christian duty.
00:02:02.09\00:02:04.78
It was their missionary
endeavor of their life
00:02:04.81\00:02:08.70
to be in that
context guiding young people
00:02:08.73\00:02:11.60
but of course they
have got to be careful
00:02:11.63\00:02:13.58
that they're not
abusing that role
00:02:13.61\00:02:16.23
and becoming a
surrogate for government to,
00:02:16.26\00:02:18.13
to push their
religious particulars.
00:02:18.16\00:02:20.09
But you know the
Bible talks about leaven
00:02:20.12\00:02:22.84
or you know you're like salt.
00:02:22.87\00:02:24.76
May be it's a better
word, salt in an environment.
00:02:24.79\00:02:27.76
Now I think Christian teachers
make all the difference.
00:02:27.79\00:02:30.13
Yes, and, and
modulus values but,
00:02:30.16\00:02:32.68
but not imposed them
upon the students over
00:02:32.71\00:02:35.78
whom they have custody by law,
00:02:35.81\00:02:38.86
you know as we're
agents of the state.
00:02:38.89\00:02:40.58
You know, lot of people will say
00:02:40.61\00:02:41.91
"you know God's been kicked
out of the public schools."
00:02:41.94\00:02:44.23
But it isn't true.
00:02:44.26\00:02:45.42
But it's not true, you know,
00:02:45.45\00:02:46.48
as my prayer instructor
James Dunn used to say
00:02:46.51\00:02:48.59
"God almighty has a
perfect attendance record."
00:02:48.62\00:02:50.98
"He has never missed
roll calls single time."
00:02:51.01\00:02:53.26
And that's true I
mean how presumptuous
00:02:53.29\00:02:55.82
to think that we can
kick God out of any place.
00:02:55.85\00:02:58.48
What we have taken out
is government sponsored
00:02:58.51\00:03:01.50
religious exercises--
00:03:01.53\00:03:04.71
very much not the
case, as to the students.
00:03:04.74\00:03:08.43
The students can
on a voluntary basis--
00:03:08.46\00:03:12.45
Exercise there
religion, there religion,
00:03:12.48\00:03:14.10
talk about, talk
about religion as long as
00:03:14.13\00:03:16.16
this is not disruptive and
as long as they don't impose
00:03:16.19\00:03:19.10
on the rights of other
students not to be religious
00:03:19.13\00:03:21.03
but there is so
many different ways
00:03:21.06\00:03:23.01
that religion can't
properly be accommodated
00:03:23.04\00:03:26.28
on the part of students
voluntarily, heartfelt religion
00:03:26.31\00:03:29.93
but not the imposition of
government sponsorship of that.
00:03:29.96\00:03:34.24
Sure you've given a good outline
00:03:34.27\00:03:35.50
what I was thinking
while you were talking
00:03:35.53\00:03:37.91
and its one that
troubles me the most.
00:03:37.94\00:03:39.42
One of the areas of contention
is praying at football games.
00:03:39.45\00:03:44.14
And I just want
to-- I have made comments
00:03:44.17\00:03:46.14
I think on this program about it
but as a Christian leading out
00:03:46.17\00:03:49.62
in religious liberty
does that trouble you,
00:03:49.65\00:03:52.65
there's a, there's a
constitutional question
00:03:52.68\00:03:54.25
but just from a
Christian perspective
00:03:54.28\00:03:57.73
it's not that its,
its an anti God activity
00:03:57.76\00:04:00.52
but its not in particularly
religious environment.
00:04:00.55\00:04:04.40
The hustle and the bustle on
the head cracking business of,
00:04:04.43\00:04:07.95
and the
profanity shouting coaches
00:04:07.98\00:04:09.85
and all the rest
why the big burden
00:04:09.88\00:04:12.63
that there be a prayer
before a football game?
00:04:12.66\00:04:13.87
Well, I think
it's a, it's perfectly,
00:04:13.90\00:04:15.10
it's perfectly
legitimate to pray.
00:04:15.13\00:04:17.07
Oh, people have the
right to. For peoples safety--
00:04:17.10\00:04:19.37
But not in a
public school environment.
00:04:19.40\00:04:20.43
Sportsmanship and all of that.
00:04:20.46\00:04:23.52
Privately individually I think
we'd even think corporately.
00:04:23.55\00:04:27.58
I do have some
problems with having anyone
00:04:27.61\00:04:30.06
get up in front of the
state control microphone,
00:04:30.09\00:04:34.53
be it a student or not to,
to use the offices of government
00:04:34.56\00:04:38.81
to impose a prayer on
the people that have come.
00:04:38.84\00:04:41.39
In fact, the
strength code is so ruled.
00:04:41.42\00:04:43.88
They have well, even
the pledge of legends
00:04:43.91\00:04:46.47
which means pretty
innocuous to most people.
00:04:46.50\00:04:48.52
Yeah.
00:04:48.55\00:04:49.58
They felt that this is something
that young people can't
00:04:49.61\00:04:51.70
and shouldn't be required
to participate in or even,
00:04:51.73\00:04:54.51
it's in the last determination
they shouldn't even be required
00:04:54.54\00:04:58.52
to be present if
it's embarrassing to them.
00:04:58.55\00:05:00.70
Right. All right.
00:05:00.73\00:05:02.12
So yeah the basic divide is
government knows student choice.
00:05:02.15\00:05:07.44
If it's the students
who expressing religion
00:05:07.47\00:05:10.16
generally speaking
its okay but if it's
00:05:10.19\00:05:12.53
the government
expressing it then, no.
00:05:12.56\00:05:14.94
The student led football
prayer is kind of be in between
00:05:14.97\00:05:18.69
because the government
is putting that student
00:05:18.72\00:05:20.48
and giving the,
given the captive audience
00:05:20.51\00:05:22.94
and the microphone and yes.
00:05:22.97\00:05:25.12
Absolutely and
sometimes it comes up in,
00:05:25.15\00:05:28.02
in pre-game
hurdles post-game hurdles
00:05:28.05\00:05:32.00
with the players themselves
get together in praying.
00:05:32.03\00:05:35.28
And as long as they're doing
it voluntarily that's fine.
00:05:35.31\00:05:38.42
You know they may have
some problem with Matthews 6
00:05:38.45\00:05:44.03
or Jesus says "go in
your closet and pray."
00:05:44.06\00:05:47.15
Not out in the
middle of the football field
00:05:47.18\00:05:49.17
but from the constitutional
point of view there is nothing,
00:05:49.20\00:05:52.45
there is nothing wrong with it.
00:05:52.48\00:05:53.51
Now if the, if
the coach comes in
00:05:53.54\00:05:56.67
and propose to lead it I think
there's a there's a problem
00:05:56.70\00:05:59.91
because then you have
got that state sponsorship
00:05:59.94\00:06:02.46
in the religious exercise.
00:06:02.49\00:06:03.93
I'll ask you this
question without even knowing
00:06:03.96\00:06:07.38
which way you go
but the other day
00:06:07.41\00:06:09.42
when I was taking my
daughter to school she goes
00:06:09.45\00:06:11.43
to a public school.
00:06:11.46\00:06:12.69
She is twelve.
00:06:12.72\00:06:14.37
And, as we arrived here
00:06:14.40\00:06:16.68
were about a 100 kids
around the flagpole praying.
00:06:16.71\00:06:20.46
And I'd heard about that its not
to gather around the flagpole.
00:06:20.49\00:06:23.70
See you at
flagpole, see you at the pole.
00:06:23.73\00:06:26.59
And I don't I have
meaning to investigate
00:06:26.62\00:06:28.74
but what you take
on that it struck me
00:06:28.77\00:06:31.05
that it probably is teacher led.
00:06:31.08\00:06:34.26
But I don't know.
00:06:34.29\00:06:36.62
Usually, they're
not and should not be.
00:06:36.65\00:06:38.89
Well, I saw a
couple of teachers.
00:06:38.92\00:06:39.95
As long as the
students are there
00:06:39.98\00:06:41.27
teachers can be in the area
for keep order and so forth.
00:06:41.30\00:06:46.59
But they should not
participate in the circle
00:06:46.62\00:06:48.81
nor should parents should be
a complete student initiative
00:06:48.84\00:06:54.48
student led moment of prayer.
00:06:54.51\00:06:57.77
I think the courts have
upheld and I'm okay with it.
00:06:57.80\00:07:00.75
I wonder
theologically a little bit
00:07:00.78\00:07:03.15
about gathering
around the flagpole.
00:07:03.18\00:07:07.41
Well, that's--
00:07:07.44\00:07:08.48
Are you praying to God
or you're praying to Caesar.
00:07:08.51\00:07:09.97
I don't know if that signals
you just know how I think that.
00:07:10.00\00:07:13.46
Sometimes in that
state. That's where its.
00:07:13.49\00:07:15.06
Yeah, may be, more--
00:07:15.09\00:07:16.12
It's Christian nation building.
00:07:16.15\00:07:17.33
Yeah, may be there a more
appropriate place on campus
00:07:17.36\00:07:19.76
beside the flagpole
to offer your prayers
00:07:19.79\00:07:22.76
but from constitutional
point of view its nothing,
00:07:22.79\00:07:25.89
nothing wrong with that.
00:07:25.92\00:07:27.89
Yeah. And I was
gonna throw in a story
00:07:27.92\00:07:29.62
that might suggest later
but, but I'm presuming you
00:07:29.65\00:07:34.76
to agree with me that, that
there is a serous issue of play.
00:07:34.79\00:07:37.66
You don't want the
government through the school
00:07:37.69\00:07:39.58
administering it but I
think its moved in a way
00:07:39.61\00:07:43.43
that at least a major
problem now are over vigilant
00:07:43.46\00:07:47.31
teachers restricting students
from expressing their faith.
00:07:47.34\00:07:50.92
Yeah, that's
definitely a problem
00:07:50.95\00:07:52.60
but can, can I pull something
out and look at it here.
00:07:52.63\00:07:55.04
Absolutely.
00:07:55.07\00:07:56.10
I wrote an
article back in August
00:07:56.13\00:07:58.42
right before the school started
and published it in our magazine
00:07:58.45\00:08:01.64
reported from the capital
and lot of people fed back
00:08:01.67\00:08:05.74
with some real
appreciation for it.
00:08:05.77\00:08:07.50
Where I, I talked about exactly
what you're talking about
00:08:07.53\00:08:10.15
and the many
things that the students,
00:08:10.18\00:08:12.13
students ought to
be able to do on campus
00:08:12.16\00:08:15.00
without pretty
much with impunity.
00:08:15.03\00:08:17.42
And let, let me just
take off a few of these.
00:08:17.45\00:08:21.60
"Students may pray
alone or in a group silently
00:08:21.63\00:08:24.61
or even out loud as long as
its voluntary non disruptive
00:08:24.64\00:08:27.73
and respectful of the
rights of other students
00:08:27.76\00:08:29.74
not to participate.
00:08:29.77\00:08:33.02
This would include see
you at pole prayer events."
00:08:33.05\00:08:35.12
That we talked
about a minute ago.
00:08:35.15\00:08:36.33
"Before classes start
and silent prayers aftermath
00:08:36.36\00:08:40.09
test begin which was
always unanswered prayer
00:08:40.12\00:08:43.02
in my case in the math class.
00:08:43.05\00:08:46.31
Students may form
and lead religious clubs
00:08:46.34\00:08:49.24
in secondary schools
before and after class.
00:08:49.27\00:08:53.05
If other non-curriculum
related groups are allowed
00:08:53.08\00:08:55.60
to meet outside
adults may not lead
00:08:55.63\00:08:58.00
or regularly
attend the Bible clubs
00:08:58.03\00:09:00.27
and teachers may be present
only to monitor the meetings.
00:09:00.30\00:09:03.38
Students may just
play and communicate
00:09:03.41\00:09:05.21
religious message on their
clothing or orally in a same way
00:09:05.24\00:09:08.73
that other messages are allowed.
00:09:08.76\00:09:10.88
Generally they may
wear religious garbs
00:09:10.91\00:09:13.44
such as yarmulke or headscarves.
00:09:13.47\00:09:16.37
Students can
distribute religious material
00:09:16.40\00:09:18.64
and literature
under the same rules
00:09:18.67\00:09:20.48
that other
material may be distributed
00:09:20.51\00:09:23.17
subject to reasonable time place
00:09:23.20\00:09:25.03
and minor restrictions
such as requiring the material
00:09:25.06\00:09:27.99
to be placed on a table rather
than actively being handed out.
00:09:28.02\00:09:32.18
Students may speak to
and even try to persuade
00:09:32.21\00:09:34.96
other students on religious
topics including inviting them
00:09:34.99\00:09:38.31
to participate in
religious services and events."
00:09:38.34\00:09:42.37
Could I think that
one is often challenged?
00:09:42.40\00:09:44.38
Well, yes, but here is
the here is the limitation on
00:09:44.41\00:09:47.28
"such speech and
invitations cannot be allowed
00:09:47.31\00:09:49.72
to turn into
religious harassment."
00:09:49.75\00:09:52.09
Yeah.
00:09:52.12\00:09:53.15
You know "a no thanks
must in the conversation."
00:09:53.18\00:09:55.92
So yeah, that can
definitely be abused.
00:09:55.95\00:09:58.59
"Students are allowed
to include religious themes
00:09:58.62\00:10:00.80
and ideas in their homework
and school work assignments
00:10:00.83\00:10:04.21
as long as those religious
references are remained
00:10:04.24\00:10:07.15
to the topic assigned.
00:10:07.18\00:10:10.44
Students may be taught about
religion in the classroom."
00:10:10.47\00:10:14.01
And they should be. Yes.
00:10:14.04\00:10:15.07
Because it's great
dignity about the particulars
00:10:15.10\00:10:17.28
of not just Christianity
but all faiths side.
00:10:17.31\00:10:20.07
Teachings--
00:10:20.10\00:10:21.13
I wish there was more knowledge
of these, these positions.
00:10:21.16\00:10:25.11
Yeah, I mean
abysmal, abysmal ignorance
00:10:25.14\00:10:27.56
but yeah
"teaching about religion,
00:10:27.59\00:10:29.20
you know, where it naturally
arises in, in the curriculum."
00:10:29.23\00:10:32.64
Sometimes you can
have separate courses
00:10:32.67\00:10:35.17
in comparative
religion Bible literature
00:10:35.20\00:10:37.52
that kind of thing can be had.
00:10:37.55\00:10:42.44
So there is there is a
whole range of opportunities
00:10:42.47\00:10:45.23
to expose students
to religious truths
00:10:45.26\00:10:50.19
and history with an educational
purpose in mind not an idea
00:10:50.22\00:10:54.69
to convert them to
any particular reasons.
00:10:54.72\00:10:56.61
Yeah, that's a good list.
00:10:56.64\00:10:58.37
There're dozens of these.
00:10:58.40\00:10:59.43
And you have covered there
00:10:59.46\00:11:00.49
some of the
problems that we have.
00:11:00.52\00:11:02.79
I think there is a distinct
lack of information being given
00:11:02.82\00:11:05.92
to the students
and from what I read of
00:11:05.95\00:11:08.42
many fundraising
letters from whole array of
00:11:08.45\00:11:11.22
mostly conservative
religious groups they seize on,
00:11:11.25\00:11:15.61
on, on the admittedly many
cases of students restricted
00:11:15.64\00:11:20.32
and make a
celebrated cause out of it.
00:11:20.35\00:11:22.97
These are
individual and fractions
00:11:23.00\00:11:25.12
but the law is
very plain isn't it,
00:11:25.15\00:11:27.00
that the students
are allowed to do that.
00:11:27.03\00:11:29.26
And I seem to remember during
the Clinton administration
00:11:29.29\00:11:32.35
they put out a white
booklet I think it wasn't
00:11:32.38\00:11:34.74
to call a white but anyhow
00:11:34.77\00:11:35.81
it was a 32-64
pages of that size,
00:11:35.84\00:11:40.22
documenting what you can do in
the public school environment.
00:11:40.25\00:11:43.67
The freedom of religion
of the young person had.
00:11:43.70\00:11:45.38
Actually it
started out as an effort
00:11:45.41\00:11:47.03
on the part of religious
groups Baptist Joint Committee,
00:11:47.06\00:11:49.59
Seventh-day
Adventist and others to,
00:11:49.62\00:11:51.84
to try to catalog all
of the in greater details
00:11:51.87\00:11:54.99
that I have done it
in the short article
00:11:55.02\00:11:56.28
but all the catalog
that of things that can occur
00:11:56.31\00:12:01.29
without violating the principle
of church state separation.
00:12:01.32\00:12:04.42
And we all agreed on
00:12:04.45\00:12:05.91
and then took it the
Clinton administration.
00:12:05.94\00:12:07.19
And said "oh this is great."
00:12:07.22\00:12:08.95
In fact President Clinton had
a special ceremony receiving it
00:12:08.98\00:12:14.54
and then you
might have been there.
00:12:14.57\00:12:16.23
Well, it's before my time--
00:12:16.26\00:12:17.29
I don't know but then he gave it
00:12:17.32\00:12:19.27
to the department of
education the secretary Riley
00:12:19.30\00:12:22.37
distributed that product
to all of the school boards
00:12:22.40\00:12:25.63
around the country.
00:12:25.66\00:12:26.69
So I mean they have it in
their hands they may not read it
00:12:26.72\00:12:28.81
or do it but the information
has been put out there
00:12:28.84\00:12:31.90
so that they should know.
00:12:31.93\00:12:32.96
And now of course that
that was 15-18 years ago
00:12:32.99\00:12:35.77
now it's online
and you can download.
00:12:35.80\00:12:37.40
But I just I
just get the feeling
00:12:37.43\00:12:38.98
and I got it well
before as with Liberty Magazine
00:12:39.01\00:12:41.18
that the schools are gone shy
00:12:41.21\00:12:43.09
that there is trouble
to be had in this area.
00:12:43.12\00:12:45.64
And so they greatly
air on the side they want
00:12:45.67\00:12:47.87
to allow the
student to say anything.
00:12:47.90\00:12:49.80
Not because they want
to restrict the students
00:12:49.83\00:12:51.38
but misguidedly
they think you know
00:12:51.41\00:12:54.06
if we stop all of that no
religion, no religion we're safe
00:12:54.09\00:12:58.30
And so we need simultaneously
uphold the separation of church
00:12:58.33\00:13:01.80
and state but remind students
00:13:01.83\00:13:04.52
and through the
parents through them.
00:13:04.55\00:13:08.34
That yes, you have the right
to express yourself religiously
00:13:08.37\00:13:11.35
even politicians and just
a change in the topic of it.
00:13:11.38\00:13:14.04
But, you know, we had
an article from Florida--
00:13:14.07\00:13:16.00
oh, no not from
Florida from Hawaii
00:13:16.03\00:13:17.60
I think where the individual
legislators where want
00:13:17.63\00:13:20.79
to go express their faith
in their office environment
00:13:20.82\00:13:23.17
they had that right.
00:13:23.20\00:13:24.91
You know that's not an improper
melding of church and state.
00:13:24.94\00:13:28.76
That's just the right
you have as an individual
00:13:28.79\00:13:30.69
to speak about your faith.
00:13:30.72\00:13:32.50
Yeah.
00:13:32.53\00:13:33.59
And I don't have any, you know,
00:13:33.62\00:13:37.00
huge stories to tell about
my two children in public school
00:13:37.03\00:13:40.05
but I know they have
come at different times
00:13:40.08\00:13:42.22
and the teachers
have sort to signaled
00:13:42.25\00:13:43.85
to them that's not might
be best to talk about religion
00:13:43.88\00:13:47.44
or to write a paper on it.
00:13:47.47\00:13:49.19
And I think that's unfortunate.
00:13:49.22\00:13:50.79
I don't think it's
done with any malice at all
00:13:50.82\00:13:53.16
but its misinformation
even through the school system.
00:13:53.19\00:13:56.57
And then I know
that there are some areas
00:13:56.60\00:13:58.49
deep in the Bible
they'll probably mostly
00:13:58.52\00:14:00.87
with the whole
culture expects that.
00:14:00.90\00:14:04.41
And so its sort of all
melds together and you know
00:14:04.44\00:14:06.55
they have the minister coming
and take meetings in the class
00:14:06.58\00:14:10.71
and so they don't
even comprehend it.
00:14:10.74\00:14:13.43
And that could be solved slowly
but it's not a legal problem
00:14:13.46\00:14:16.22
it's a societal misunderstanding
00:14:16.25\00:14:18.39
of the separation
of church and state.
00:14:18.42\00:14:19.85
This is the majority or
happy there is no problem.
00:14:19.88\00:14:22.80
Yeah.
00:14:22.83\00:14:24.17
Well, I sympathize with school
administrator I understand.
00:14:24.20\00:14:28.59
Oh, yeah difficult time.
00:14:28.62\00:14:30.82
They most of time do a good job.
00:14:30.85\00:14:32.56
We'll be back
after a short break
00:14:32.59\00:14:33.97
to continue our
discussion, stay with us.
00:14:34.00\00:14:36.36