Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), J. Brent Walker
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000245B
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00:06 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:08 Before the break with guest Brent Walker 00:11 we were talking about ceremonial deism 00:14 basically we were heading toward more political religion. 00:19 You know, how does that work in the United States? 00:22 We sort to see it stirring down in particularly 00:26 during presidential elections 00:28 but it's not something you can globally dismiss. 00:30 There is a strong undercurrent of religious sensibility 00:36 even in the most political movements 00:38 here in the United States. 00:39 Well, well you know in a country as religious is ours 00:44 it shouldn't surprise us that, you know, 00:46 deities name will bubble up from time to time 00:49 in our public ceremonies, in our rituals, 00:52 our slogans and in our songs. 00:54 I mean its just part of our heritage, our tradition. 00:58 You know its going to, its going to be there 01:00 and so sometimes its called civil religion 01:05 there are spring course fancy name ceremonial deism 01:08 and kind of a clearly a derogatory. 01:11 Well, I mean is religion removed of its meaning. 01:13 Yeah, exactly, exactly. 01:15 It's a forum, it's a public forum. 01:17 If its vitality in heart religion, 01:19 head religion instead of heart religion kind of thing. 01:22 So but, you know, 01:24 so I think some of that is to be inspected. 01:27 And not all of our acknowledgments 01:31 of our religious heritages are bad I mean, you know, 01:35 it sort of a bond that makes us feel good about 01:37 where we come from. 01:38 And you know the fact that we can talk 01:40 about religion in public comfortably 01:42 to me it's a plus not a minus or a place in Europe 01:45 where you just don't do that. 01:47 So I think that that's good but it does worry me 01:51 when I feel like a politician 01:53 or candidate that is using that God talk 01:56 to advance a party line or a political campaign. 02:04 It seems like there is its some kind of abusive 02:08 of the process to play on that. 02:12 And you know it can turn into a real diminishment of 02:16 the importance of religion in our life's and in our country. 02:19 Well, these two things I can think of on this abortion issue 02:22 and then this is very real moral issues that play there. 02:26 But it bothers me that the moral issue 02:28 that many churches have taken a clear stance on that's fine 02:35 but that becomes just a litmus test 02:37 and as long as you are on the right side of that 02:40 everything else doesn't matter it goes with it. 02:43 And that's just cover I mean, it's happened in 02:45 many, many countries and many, many times 02:47 that can be covered for a horrible agenda 02:49 far worse perhaps then the moral issue at hand 02:53 rather than looking at the spread issues 02:55 as you say compromise is the stuff of politics 02:59 and even a person of faith looking at secular politics 03:03 might really logically submerge that one view a bit 03:07 if they see this politicians is better than in the country. 03:09 But I see religious forces have been raving up the troops. 03:13 You know, therefore this, therefore abortion, 03:15 therefore they're fine you know and then they might be just 03:17 the till of the hammer on the public good. 03:20 Yeah, yeah absolutely. 03:23 Barbara Jordan wonderful member of Congress 03:27 and Baptist preachers' daughter was very much 03:33 influenced by her religious background 03:35 and sort of made that known as she served in Congress 03:40 and as professor of law at the University of Texas. 03:43 But, you know, one time she was asked actually 03:47 at a meeting of the Baptist Joint Committee 03:48 how she went about squaring her civic responsibilities with her, 03:53 her religious beliefs and how that was balanced out. 03:57 And she said you know here is how I think about it. 04:00 You ought to pursue your cause with vigor 04:03 going right at and boy, she can do it. 04:06 But remember that you are a servant of God 04:09 not a spokesperson for God. 04:12 A servant of God not a spokesperson for God. 04:15 And to remember that God may have revealed himself 04:21 in another way to somebody else 04:22 that has not yet been revealed to you. 04:24 So, the call for some humility in servant 04:29 who'd in our philosophy about public service 04:32 I think is a point well taken. 04:34 That's a very good point for religious liberty in general. 04:37 Yes. 04:38 Now, you know, I'm a Seventh-day Adventist 04:40 protestant Christian and I'm convinced in myself that 04:43 and I can look at any other denomination I could figure 04:46 they're wrong on some doctrinal points that's fine. 04:49 But looking back from all of that 04:51 I need to understand that perhaps in the larger picture 04:54 I might not so much be wrong 04:56 but other person thinks same as me. 04:58 Exactly, yeah. 04:59 And we're all before God with our conscience 05:02 not before each other. 05:03 So we should have a little humility. 05:05 Yeah, yeah, like humility is absolutely essential. 05:08 It doesn't mean, it doesn't mean you can't be bowled 05:12 and pursue your cause but just little think 05:15 and interesting that you might 05:17 God may have revealed something to somebody else 05:18 he hadn't told you about yet. 05:19 And the trick is I don't know if we can resolve it 05:23 but I think we need to mention it empassing. 05:26 We don't want crusaders 05:32 hacking back to the crusades, 05:34 you know, moving in the government 05:35 and trying to hack their way through 05:37 and Christianize whole country 05:41 you know by force of law or of arms 05:45 but do we also need to fear sort of a generic religiosity 05:52 that ultimately is the enemy for all particular religious faith. 05:56 But, you know, I think in a way in a backdoor way 06:00 where were groping in the United States 06:02 to a sort of a breadbasket or a basket full of 06:07 semi acceptable or acceptable religious 06:10 sensibilities and organizations 06:12 and that will be equated which to be an American. 06:15 Yeah. 06:17 I don't think it's even possible as the way 06:19 I understand the history of the country that ever 06:21 and it never was possible from the day one that you could say 06:24 Baptist or Methodist this is the state religion. 06:27 But it is hardly far from, you know, 06:30 its not a long short to say that, you know, 06:33 the warm center of coalition of Bible believing perhaps 06:40 flag waving religionist that these we have a people 06:44 and ones on the fringes are not American. 06:46 Right, right. 06:47 I have said it on this program before but it just burned 06:50 its way into my consciousness I saw Jerry Falwell 06:53 just before he died with reverend Sharpton. 06:58 They were on TV and they were discussing, you know, 07:02 generally they were on the same side 07:04 and they were discussing abortion. 07:06 Now everything was fine. 07:07 Well, they were on the same side. 07:08 Right. 07:09 And then in the middle of the discussion 07:11 Sharpton tried to throw in 07:13 some social consciences within the city. 07:16 And whether or not Falwell agreed with that per se 07:20 but he didn't like getting off message. 07:21 And he turned to him and with this is hardly a word 07:26 or two different of what he said no pause he said, 07:28 if you believe he said you are not a Christian 07:32 you're not an American you're a terrorist sympathizer. 07:34 Wow. 07:36 And it's just incredible that it just devolved that quickly. 07:40 But isn't that fun we started out talking about religious test 07:44 but in a sense you're now talking about a patriotic test. 07:47 Well, I think-- 07:48 From here you are jumping out the other way out. 07:50 It goes both ways. Yeah. 07:53 But it's another way to say that I think 07:55 that deserve a powerful little insertion in the constitution 07:59 and it needs to be taken to heart. 08:00 Now I'm glad we've got on to that 08:01 because we spend a lot of time on the first amendment. 08:04 But that little almost a clause isn't that there 08:08 well, a little sentence. 08:10 No religious test for public office, 08:11 it's a great protective mechanism 08:13 but it should be read large. 08:14 Right and it does strictly speaking govern 08:17 our relationship with the state what the state can insist upon 08:20 as a qualification but it also has there horizontal component 08:24 that says how, how you're gonna treat one and another 08:26 in the political realm. 08:28 And I forget who it was Alec Guinness and Charles Hynes 08:33 and others have talked about the three hours 08:36 of civic life rights. 08:40 You know, treasure the rights that you have been given 08:42 and then are ensured by our constitution, 08:47 responsibility exercise those rights responsibly 08:51 not always might be mine but how can that be used. 08:54 Of course, that was coming what's the third one? 08:56 Yeah, the third one is respect. 08:57 So rights exercising then responsibly 09:00 and respecting those with whom who disagree? 09:03 You know, let's agree with him or-- 09:05 Well, in religious liberty because I have heard it said 09:07 I have even said it to other people, you know, 09:10 if I believe in religious liberty I can differ from you 09:12 but I should be willing to die 09:14 to defend your act to believe that. 09:16 That's the ultimate respect I believe. 09:18 I mean I might think what you believe is plural 09:20 but the principle is so important 09:22 that I would go to the wall for 09:25 and hopefully we don't have to go to the wall 09:27 but if we have that readiness I think religious freedom 09:30 and individual expression as safe, isn't it. 09:32 Yeah I think so. 09:34 I think there are very, very wise to put that in there. 09:37 Yeah. 09:38 And it was debated. 09:39 You know, we were talking about who was there. 09:41 Yeah, who was it that came forward. 09:42 I can't, I can't put it in. 09:43 Anyhow but there was some debate in this passage. 09:46 Well, the-- yeah, yeah 09:49 it was not just slipped in there by accident 09:51 and there was actually debated 09:53 because it had been so prevalent in the colonies 09:57 that it was something of a revolutionary concept 09:59 and saying no religious test but it was important 10:01 to have it there to ensure religious liberty for all. 10:07 Years ago I remember being mightily impressed 10:09 by the actor Laurence Olivier playing the Mahdi 10:13 in Khartoum for the Mahdi that rose up in the area there 10:18 and eventually captured Khartoum put it to the sword 10:21 and killed General Gordon the hero of the British Empire. 10:25 The Mahdi claimed to be a religious leader 10:28 melding politics and religion in one rather blood thirsty vision. 10:34 Its worth remembering that when Jesus was before Pilate 10:37 the representative of rather blood thirsty empire 10:40 and the charge against Jesus was that 10:43 He was pretender to the throne. 10:45 He said to Pilate by way of gentle reminder 10:48 He says "My kingdom is not of this earth." 10:53 And today when we talk about politicians and religion, 10:56 politics and religion whether they should mix 10:59 we need to remember yes, 11:01 the Christians are in this world, 11:02 people of faith are in this world, 11:05 but when we meld those two rows politics and religion 11:09 we want to steer clear of anything that will 11:12 result in this dangerous in outcome 11:14 as the man Mahdi or many other pretenders 11:18 to religio political path through the ages. 11:22 For liberty Insider this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2014-12-17