Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
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Before the break
with guest Brent Walker
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we were talking
about ceremonial deism
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basically we were heading
toward more political religion.
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You know, how does that
work in the United States?
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We sort to see it
stirring down in particularly
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during presidential elections
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but it's not something
you can globally dismiss.
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There is a strong undercurrent
of religious sensibility
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even in the most
political movements
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here in the United States.
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Well, well you know in a
country as religious is ours
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it shouldn't
surprise us that, you know,
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deities name will
bubble up from time to time
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in our public
ceremonies, in our rituals,
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our slogans and in our songs.
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I mean its just part of
our heritage, our tradition.
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You know its going
to, its going to be there
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and so sometimes its
called civil religion
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there are spring course
fancy name ceremonial deism
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and kind of a
clearly a derogatory.
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Well, I mean is
religion removed of its meaning.
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Yeah, exactly, exactly.
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It's a forum,
it's a public forum.
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If its vitality
in heart religion,
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head religion instead of
heart religion kind of thing.
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So but, you know,
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so I think some of
that is to be inspected.
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And not all of
our acknowledgments
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of our religious heritages
are bad I mean, you know,
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it sort of a bond that
makes us feel good about
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where we come from.
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And you know the
fact that we can talk
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about religion in
public comfortably
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to me it's a plus not a
minus or a place in Europe
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where you just don't do that.
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So I think that that's
good but it does worry me
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when I feel like a politician
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or candidate that
is using that God talk
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to advance a party line
or a political campaign.
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It seems like there is
its some kind of abusive
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of the process to play on that.
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And you know it can turn
into a real diminishment of
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the importance of religion in
our life's and in our country.
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Well, these two things I can
think of on this abortion issue
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and then this is very real
moral issues that play there.
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But it bothers me
that the moral issue
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that many churches have taken
a clear stance on that's fine
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but that becomes
just a litmus test
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and as long as you are
on the right side of that
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everything else
doesn't matter it goes with it.
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And that's just cover
I mean, it's happened in
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many, many
countries and many, many times
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that can be covered
for a horrible agenda
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far worse perhaps then
the moral issue at hand
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rather than looking
at the spread issues
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as you say compromise
is the stuff of politics
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and even a person of faith
looking at secular politics
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might really logically
submerge that one view a bit
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if they see this politicians
is better than in the country.
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But I see religious forces
have been raving up the troops.
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You know, therefore
this, therefore abortion,
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therefore they're fine you
know and then they might be just
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the till of the
hammer on the public good.
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Yeah, yeah absolutely.
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Barbara Jordan
wonderful member of Congress
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and Baptist preachers'
daughter was very much
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influenced by her
religious background
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and sort of made that
known as she served in Congress
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and as professor of law
at the University of Texas.
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But, you know, one
time she was asked actually
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at a meeting of the
Baptist Joint Committee
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how she went about squaring her
civic responsibilities with her,
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her religious beliefs and
how that was balanced out.
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And she said you know
here is how I think about it.
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You ought to pursue
your cause with vigor
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going right at and
boy, she can do it.
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But remember that
you are a servant of God
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not a spokesperson for God.
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A servant of God not
a spokesperson for God.
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And to remember that God
may have revealed himself
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in another way to somebody else
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that has not yet
been revealed to you.
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So, the call for
some humility in servant
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who'd in our
philosophy about public service
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I think is a point well taken.
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That's a very good point for
religious liberty in general.
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Yes.
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Now, you know, I'm a
Seventh-day Adventist
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protestant Christian and
I'm convinced in myself that
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and I can look at any other
denomination I could figure
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they're wrong on some
doctrinal points that's fine.
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But looking
back from all of that
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I need to understand that
perhaps in the larger picture
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I might not so much be wrong
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but other person
thinks same as me.
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Exactly, yeah.
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And we're all before
God with our conscience
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not before each other.
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So we should have
a little humility.
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Yeah, yeah, like humility
is absolutely essential.
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It doesn't mean, it
doesn't mean you can't be bowled
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and pursue your
cause but just little think
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and interesting that you might
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God may have revealed
something to somebody else
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he hadn't told you about yet.
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And the trick is I don't
know if we can resolve it
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but I think we need
to mention it empassing.
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We don't want crusaders
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hacking back to the crusades,
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you know, moving
in the government
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and trying to
hack their way through
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and Christianize whole country
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you know by
force of law or of arms
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but do we also need to fear
sort of a generic religiosity
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that ultimately is the enemy for
all particular religious faith.
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But, you know, I think
in a way in a backdoor way
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where were groping
in the United States
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to a sort of a
breadbasket or a basket full of
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semi acceptable or
acceptable religious
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sensibilities and organizations
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and that will be
equated which to be an American.
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Yeah.
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I don't think it's
even possible as the way
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I understand the
history of the country that ever
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and it never was possible from
the day one that you could say
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Baptist or Methodist
this is the state religion.
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But it is hardly
far from, you know,
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its not a long short
to say that, you know,
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the warm center of coalition
of Bible believing perhaps
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flag waving religionist
that these we have a people
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and ones on the
fringes are not American.
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Right, right.
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I have said it on this program
before but it just burned
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its way into my consciousness
I saw Jerry Falwell
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just before he died
with reverend Sharpton.
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They were on TV and they
were discussing, you know,
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generally they
were on the same side
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and they were
discussing abortion.
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Now everything was fine.
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Well, they were
on the same side.
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Right.
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And then in the
middle of the discussion
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Sharpton tried to throw in
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some social
consciences within the city.
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And whether or not
Falwell agreed with that per se
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but he didn't like
getting off message.
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And he turned to him and
with this is hardly a word
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or two different of what
he said no pause he said,
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if you believe he said
you are not a Christian
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you're not an American
you're a terrorist sympathizer.
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Wow.
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And it's just incredible that
it just devolved that quickly.
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But isn't that fun we started
out talking about religious test
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but in a sense you're now
talking about a patriotic test.
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Well, I think--
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From here you are
jumping out the other way out.
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It goes both ways. Yeah.
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But it's another
way to say that I think
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that deserve a powerful little
insertion in the constitution
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and it needs to
be taken to heart.
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Now I'm glad
we've got on to that
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because we spend a lot of
time on the first amendment.
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But that little almost
a clause isn't that there
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well, a little sentence.
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No religious test
for public office,
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it's a great
protective mechanism
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but it should be read large.
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Right and it does
strictly speaking govern
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our relationship with the state
what the state can insist upon
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as a qualification but it also
has there horizontal component
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that says how, how you're
gonna treat one and another
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in the political realm.
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And I forget who it was
Alec Guinness and Charles Hynes
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and others have
talked about the three hours
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of civic life rights.
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You know, treasure the
rights that you have been given
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and then are
ensured by our constitution,
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responsibility exercise
those rights responsibly
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not always might be mine
but how can that be used.
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Of course, that was
coming what's the third one?
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Yeah, the third one is respect.
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So rights
exercising then responsibly
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and respecting those
with whom who disagree?
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You know, let's
agree with him or--
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Well, in religious liberty
because I have heard it said
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I have even said it to
other people, you know,
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if I believe in religious
liberty I can differ from you
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but I should be willing to die
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to defend your
act to believe that.
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That's the
ultimate respect I believe.
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I mean I might think
what you believe is plural
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but the
principle is so important
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that I would go to the wall for
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and hopefully we
don't have to go to the wall
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but if we have that readiness
I think religious freedom
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and individual
expression as safe, isn't it.
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Yeah I think so.
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I think there are very,
very wise to put that in there.
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Yeah.
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And it was debated.
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You know, we were
talking about who was there.
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Yeah, who was it
that came forward.
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I can't, I can't put it in.
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Anyhow but there was
some debate in this passage.
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Well, the-- yeah, yeah
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it was not just
slipped in there by accident
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and there was actually debated
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because it had been so
prevalent in the colonies
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that it was something
of a revolutionary concept
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and saying no religious
test but it was important
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to have it there to ensure
religious liberty for all.
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Years ago I remember
being mightily impressed
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by the actor Laurence
Olivier playing the Mahdi
00:10:09.80\00:10:13.77
in Khartoum for the Mahdi
that rose up in the area there
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and eventually captured
Khartoum put it to the sword
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and killed General Gordon
the hero of the British Empire.
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The Mahdi claimed to
be a religious leader
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melding politics and religion in
one rather blood thirsty vision.
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Its worth remembering that
when Jesus was before Pilate
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the representative of
rather blood thirsty empire
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and the charge
against Jesus was that
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He was pretender to the throne.
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He said to Pilate by
way of gentle reminder
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He says "My kingdom
is not of this earth."
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And today when we talk
about politicians and religion,
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politics and religion
whether they should mix
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we need to remember yes,
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the Christians
are in this world,
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people of faith
are in this world,
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but when we meld those
two rows politics and religion
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we want to steer
clear of anything that will
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result in this
dangerous in outcome
00:11:12.52\00:11:14.95
as the man Mahdi or
many other pretenders
00:11:14.98\00:11:18.25
to religio political
path through the ages.
00:11:18.28\00:11:22.10
For liberty Insider
this is Lincoln Steed.
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