Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), J. Brent Walker
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000245A
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00:23 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:25 This is the program bringing you news, 00:27 views and of course discussion about 00:29 significant religious liberty developments 00:31 in the United States and indeed around the world. 00:34 My name is Lincoln Steed the editor of Liberty Magazine 00:37 and my guest on the program is Brent Walker 00:40 executive director of the Baptist Joint Committee 00:42 for Religious Freedom. 00:43 Welcome. 00:44 Great to be here, thank you, Lincoln. 00:46 It's always a pleasure to talk to you 00:48 and now we're doing in the front of the camera 00:49 because I want our viewers to, to hear your views 00:54 on some of these seminal issues 00:56 and there could be no more important issue 00:59 I think on religious liberty in the United States today 01:01 and then how it interacts with politics. 01:05 I'd probably, always been a little bit that way 01:07 but certainly since the 1970s give or take 01:10 with the rise of the religious right 01:12 and sort of the coming into power of these 01:14 so called religious minority 01:16 well, the moral majority but in a minority 01:19 we have seen attempts to join religion and politics 01:22 and not always something I'm comfortable with. 01:25 Where are we today on that because 01:27 you don't hear a quite as much in the last few years. 01:29 I think it peaked to presidential elections ago 01:33 but I know that there is an undercurrent is continuing. 01:36 Yeah, well it's an important topic to be sure. 01:39 You know the separation of church and state 01:40 doesn't divorce religion from politics or God from government. 01:44 I mean people of faith have as much right 01:47 as anybody else to run for office, to be involved, 01:49 to plug into political life, public affairs 01:54 they don't have to content themselves 01:58 to worship within the forum. 02:00 No, it should be. 02:01 And you know I hope it didn't help me with some of the quotes 02:03 but I know on certain websites particularly 02:05 there is all sort of wonderful chestnut quotes 02:07 from George Washington on statements to the effect that 02:11 it's the faith of the people that makes this country 02:13 and you know the country has to have 02:16 this religious sentiment. 02:18 And that's often confused with the religious identity 02:23 for the structure and business of government. 02:25 Right, right 02:26 But individual yes, I believe that 02:28 without a religious sensibility in our society 02:31 it would sees to be anywhere 02:33 near like the country was intended to be. 02:34 Yeah. 02:36 And its good for the voters because you know to hear 02:38 candidates talk about their religion helps us to 02:41 you know, know some more about them 02:44 understand their moral core where they come from so. 02:47 You know it harbors to potential at least of helping us 02:52 know more about the people 02:54 that we are being asked to vote for. 02:56 So it helps motivate them, it helps to the body politic 03:00 and its evaluation of the candidates. 03:04 That said danger always lurks 03:08 when you try to combine religion in politics. 03:11 Two things as you said you don't want to talk about 03:13 and imply company over all. 03:14 Yeah, well did. 03:16 So this is probably not a polite program. 03:20 We are always dealing with this here. 03:21 Yeah. 03:22 So you know danger always lurks so it can be dicey. 03:24 And so you know I have got, you know, 03:27 a couple of ideas about how we negotiate that difficulty 03:31 and the first one is not my idea which is in the constitution. 03:34 You know we tell a lot talk a lot about the first amendment. 03:37 You know those establishment clause free exercise clause 03:40 but in the constitution itself not the bill of rights 03:43 but in article six of the constitution 03:45 there is a clause it says we're not gonna have 03:47 any religious test for public office. 03:50 And in someway that's the most extraordinary 03:52 the more extraordinary statement in the constitution 03:55 in the first amendment in my view. 03:56 Yes, because and many of the colonies 03:59 had religious test. 04:00 Somebody had to believe in God, 04:01 somebody had to believe in the trinity you know 04:03 the various different tests that you had to sign off on 04:06 before you could even qualify or run 04:08 to be elected to an office in those colonies 04:11 and the wise founder of our republic say 04:12 we're not going to have that for the federal government. 04:15 It continued in many of the colonies 04:17 even after the constitution 04:18 but as far as the federal government was concerned 04:21 they said, you know, we're not gonna add them. 04:23 We had no religious test and people didn't think that 04:26 we have a Christian nation legally and constitutionally 04:29 we have to answer the question. 04:30 Well, if that's the case why we say no religious test. 04:33 You have to have a Christian test if it's gonna be. 04:35 And it's been a hard fitness someway 04:37 because you know I think back on Mitt Romney's 04:40 last two trials for the presidency 04:42 and that was the big story in essence 04:45 a significant part of the electorate, electorate 04:47 where willing to apply religious test too. 04:49 Whether or not he was personally fit to be president 04:52 could be debated but a huge amount of the 04:54 discussion was a moment. 04:56 No, no, whether we have such a religious viewpoint 04:59 with someone leading the country. 05:00 But clearly we can, clearly the constitution-- 05:02 Yeah, yeah. 05:03 Technically the provision in the constitution 05:06 only binds government not electors. 05:08 Now we can, do that if we want you know 05:11 and it you know it's a legal qualification 05:14 for running for office. 05:15 But it's also a signal, it's a signal to a constituency that 05:19 this shouldn't be a major criteria. 05:23 Absolutely and that's my point that 05:24 that we should follow the spirit 05:27 as well as the letter of the religious test clause 05:30 in how we evaluate our candidates. 05:32 Religion is not an important its part of mix 05:34 but its bad citizenship I think to impose 05:39 a religious litmus test on our candidates 05:43 and you're talking Romney I think 05:45 may be it was a bigger deal in his first run then. 05:50 Yes, but it did come up again. 05:51 But it did come up again. 05:52 And you know we're at Liberty Magazine 05:54 ran an article or two and one we got vilified full 05:57 because we-- I hope with the right term 06:04 mentioned that even the Reverend Billy Graham 06:06 and his organization got sort of caught 06:09 flatfooted on this whole thing. 06:10 They did change and the change was good but you know 06:13 what change, it seemed like it was a political expediency 06:15 when they thought that Romney would be the candidate. 06:18 But I would hope that there are other criteria than you know 06:21 to just the religious affiliation with someone. 06:23 Absolutely, and that's my second point. 06:26 You know, in addition to following the spirit 06:29 as well as the letter there is no religious test principle 06:33 it seems to me that when you do talk about religion 06:36 in the course of a campaign or in the public square 06:39 that you ought to do it in term of how it's relevant 06:43 to something that matters in the election. 06:45 It should be a tight fit between talking about 06:48 religion in the campaign and what difference 06:51 will it make if this person is elected. 06:54 So its not just theological warriorism 06:56 that you're engaged in 06:57 but you're actually trying to find out more about 07:00 how this person is going to perform 07:02 in the office that he or she is running for. 07:04 So no religious test principle in a tight fit 07:07 when you do talk about religion for to 07:11 illuminate something that matters in the election. 07:15 If the risk of boring you and then alienating people 07:18 and let me tell a joke that I read years ago. 07:22 I'm listening. 07:23 You remember the Opus cartoon, Opus penguin? 07:26 Yeah, yes, yes. 07:29 During one of the campaigns I remember they had Opus, 07:32 he got up he was the candidate and he says, 07:35 you know, I believe in such and such or say lets try 07:40 I believe in religion and what's more I believe in religion 07:43 twenty percent more than my nearest candidate. 07:47 And they said to him what do you believe about Walrus Angels? 07:51 And he says oh yes, I believe in them and he is out. 07:54 And he says religious commitment such a dangerous thing. 07:59 And what it told me is 08:02 lot of this public posturing on religion 08:05 I think is misleading plus its really denigrates religion. 08:08 Just because someone says there're good church goers 08:11 and you know see the candidates traipsing off to their church 08:14 perhaps what they would normally. 08:17 You know well, part of them would say 08:18 want to appear religionist 08:19 but I think that should be judged on their public trust 08:21 not primarily on what they posture on religion. 08:25 Yeah, and most religious candidate real or framed 08:31 is not necessarily the best person to lead a 08:34 essentially secular governmental enterprise. 08:38 And I'll throw in something here and you just said your opinion. 08:44 I've made controversy sometimes 08:47 not inadvertently but I walk into it. 08:50 But, you know, I watch what's happening on the national sphere 08:53 particularly and politics has become a dirty business. 08:57 I think people not only text inappropriate things 09:01 but they deal with some nefarious organizations. 09:06 They will say one thing to this group one to another. 09:09 They dissemble, you know, 09:12 the security releases lately show 09:14 how much double dealing there is and it's regrettable. 09:17 And I wonder sometimes I truly moral upright 09:22 Christian in this case, you know, 09:25 I think from a Christian perspective could you really 09:27 function effectively on a national stage 09:31 in a major political position. 09:34 Whether you can or not it could debate 09:36 but I think it's a question that needs to be asked. 09:38 Well, I think you can but the question is how are can you go. 09:41 Yeah, with your heart. With your conscience. 09:43 Yes, I mean politics is about compromise first and foremost. 09:49 You know, if you're gonna govern effectively giving 09:53 our disagreements on so many issues part of problems 09:55 we have now is that people are, 09:56 some people aren't really comfortable 09:58 so you got to well accommodated. 09:59 But then what are the limits? 10:01 Where does your conscience stop you 10:05 from compromising it and more? 10:07 It's always there. 10:08 You know, I always say on this program that 10:09 there are no Christians in politics 10:11 and that no Christian shouldgo in. 10:13 But I think it begs thinking about 10:15 that it's become a very almost antithetical 10:19 calling to Christian behavior. 10:22 Shouldn't be like that. 10:23 You know we wish we had the, you know, 10:26 the priestly kings in a in a certain philosophical sense 10:30 but it's a difficult time. 10:32 And I think perhaps that's where this some voter culpability. 10:37 We shouldn't be looking at a religious test 10:39 but we should be more concerned about the public morality 10:43 or the, the morality of our public servants. 10:46 Not the religious affiliation 10:48 but are they really a trustworthy person. 10:51 Yeah, yeah. 10:52 And I think a lot of the time, 10:53 yeah he belongs to this group or is that group 10:55 that short circuits and it may be a very, 10:57 very intolerant bigoted, you know, 11:00 retrograde sort of an individual. 11:03 I don't know but it's something that it's talked about 11:06 but never really at the nitty-gritty of my view. 11:08 We commit it from the wrong point. 11:10 Yeah. 11:11 Well, I do think there are people of faith 11:13 serving and serving admirably. 11:15 Yes, it's true. I had seen. 11:16 You have to compromises for sure as all of us do in life. 11:19 Yes, but I'm, I'm glad that they're. 11:21 Specially the married ones. 11:23 I think we would be a terribly impoverished body 11:27 politic without people, without people of faith. 11:29 Yeah, but I'm not saying that people the atheist 11:32 can obviously be great leaders and others I mean it's not that. 11:37 And you give me the angel. 11:39 Early on this principle was challenged overtly 11:43 with the election of President Jefferson 11:46 that election was it-- 11:48 1800. 11:49 Yeah, 1800 I nearly said 1812 11:51 That's the war. 11:53 That's the war that broke out after he left. 11:55 But you know that election was very contentious 11:57 and you know I have read the material from that time 11:59 and he was portrayed as an anti religionist 12:03 a growth secularist and hey, you know, 12:05 why should we elect such a person. 12:07 But already they had that no religious test so 12:09 and of course he was elected so it turned out well. 12:12 And he was certainly not a bad president 12:14 for the entire Untied States. 12:17 And certainly didn't set religion 12:18 back on its heels in any way. 12:20 Whatever his own personal religion 12:23 and it was a little bit unorthodox from time to time 12:25 because you remember he created his own Bible 12:27 he got the New Testament cut out all the stuff that 12:29 that he though was made up and put it back together 12:31 and he has his Jefferson Bible. 12:34 But he surely was a friend of religious liberty. 12:38 Well, I think he was the religious-- 12:39 That's what is important for a leader to be. 12:41 He was a friend of individual self determination. 12:44 He didn't want to restrict choices of other people. 12:47 But you know in those letters I'm sure you have read them 12:49 between he and Adams later in life 12:52 they got the discussing religion 12:53 Jefferson didn't think religion or Christianity 12:55 would survive in America. 12:56 Right. 12:57 So it's not Trinitarian Christianity 13:00 and it's you know he-- 13:01 And I don't remember that he specified it 13:02 but he probably was thinking along those lines 13:04 when they were dialoging, yeah. 13:06 Right, right. 13:07 But yeah he believed in a more visceral personal thing 13:10 and which I can't easily identify with but it's, 13:13 it's certainly someone something that you have to respect. 13:16 And he was a thinking person. 13:18 He wasn't a glib dismiss of religious views. 13:21 So yeah, no religious says republic office, 13:23 that you're right. 13:24 Along side the first amendment that is a shining beacon 13:27 in the US constitution that enables religious liberty. 13:30 In this case it really inoculates 13:33 the government against 13:35 I think as far as I can go 13:36 against religious extremism or exclusion. 13:40 And frankly I think we're doing better on that score. 13:43 I think we are becoming more at peace with peace 13:47 within the religious test of principle. 13:49 You know we have two Muslims in congress, a Buddhist, a Hindu 13:53 now couple of Nuns and unaffiliated numbers 14:00 and we, you know, we are okay with that. 14:03 Well most of us are okay. 14:05 Well, well. 14:06 But, yes, you're right I think arguably on that 14:07 we're making progress. 14:10 What I see though is a shifting of what 14:13 a public definition of religion is. 14:14 Its not and it comes at us from other angels too. 14:17 It's not organizational it's more an identification 14:22 with a religious viewpoint with the state. 14:25 I think we're closer to sort of a pan religious patriotism. 14:33 Sometimes it's called civil religion. 14:34 Yeah, okay, thank you. 14:36 We need, to take a break now 14:37 we will back shortly to continue this discussion, 14:40 stay with us we'll be right back. |
Revised 2014-12-17