Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is the
program bringing you news,
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views and of
course discussion about
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significant
religious liberty developments
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in the United States
and indeed around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed
the editor of Liberty Magazine
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and my guest on the
program is Brent Walker
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executive director of
the Baptist Joint Committee
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for Religious Freedom.
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Welcome.
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Great to be here,
thank you, Lincoln.
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It's always a
pleasure to talk to you
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and now we're doing in
the front of the camera
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because I want our
viewers to, to hear your views
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on some of these seminal issues
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and there could be
no more important issue
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I think on religious liberty
in the United States today
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and then how it
interacts with politics.
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I'd probably, always
been a little bit that way
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but certainly since
the 1970s give or take
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with the rise of
the religious right
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and sort of the
coming into power of these
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so called religious minority
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well, the moral
majority but in a minority
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we have seen attempts to
join religion and politics
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and not always
something I'm comfortable with.
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Where are we
today on that because
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you don't hear a quite as
much in the last few years.
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I think it peaked to
presidential elections ago
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but I know that there is
an undercurrent is continuing.
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Yeah, well it's an
important topic to be sure.
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You know the
separation of church and state
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doesn't divorce religion from
politics or God from government.
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I mean people of
faith have as much right
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as anybody else to run
for office, to be involved,
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to plug into
political life, public affairs
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they don't have
to content themselves
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to worship within the forum.
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No, it should be.
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And you know I hope it didn't
help me with some of the quotes
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but I know on
certain websites particularly
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there is all sort of
wonderful chestnut quotes
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from George Washington on
statements to the effect that
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it's the faith of the
people that makes this country
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and you know the
country has to have
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this religious sentiment.
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And that's often confused
with the religious identity
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for the structure and
business of government.
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Right, right
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But individual
yes, I believe that
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without a religious
sensibility in our society
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it would sees to be anywhere
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near like the
country was intended to be.
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Yeah.
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And its good for the
voters because you know to hear
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candidates talk about
their religion helps us to
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you know, know
some more about them
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understand their moral
core where they come from so.
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You know it harbors to
potential at least of helping us
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know more about the people
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that we are being
asked to vote for.
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So it helps motivate them,
it helps to the body politic
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and its
evaluation of the candidates.
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That said danger always lurks
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when you try to
combine religion in politics.
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Two things as you said
you don't want to talk about
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and imply company over all.
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Yeah, well did.
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So this is probably
not a polite program.
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We are always
dealing with this here.
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Yeah.
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So you know danger
always lurks so it can be dicey.
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And so you know I
have got, you know,
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a couple of ideas about how
we negotiate that difficulty
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and the first one is not my idea
which is in the constitution.
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You know we tell a lot talk a
lot about the first amendment.
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You know those establishment
clause free exercise clause
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but in the constitution
itself not the bill of rights
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but in article six
of the constitution
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there is a clause it
says we're not gonna have
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any religious
test for public office.
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And in someway that's
the most extraordinary
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the more extraordinary
statement in the constitution
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in the first
amendment in my view.
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Yes, because and
many of the colonies
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had religious test.
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Somebody had to believe in God,
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somebody had to
believe in the trinity you know
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the various different tests
that you had to sign off on
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before you could
even qualify or run
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to be elected to an
office in those colonies
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and the wise
founder of our republic say
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we're not going to have
that for the federal government.
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It continued in
many of the colonies
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even after the constitution
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but as far as the
federal government was concerned
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they said, you know,
we're not gonna add them.
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We had no religious test
and people didn't think that
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we have a Christian nation
legally and constitutionally
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we have to answer the question.
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Well, if that's the case
why we say no religious test.
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You have to have a
Christian test if it's gonna be.
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And it's been a
hard fitness someway
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because you know I
think back on Mitt Romney's
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last two trials
for the presidency
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and that was the
big story in essence
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a significant part of
the electorate, electorate
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where willing to
apply religious test too.
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Whether or not he was
personally fit to be president
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could be debated
but a huge amount of the
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discussion was a moment.
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No, no, whether we have
such a religious viewpoint
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with someone
leading the country.
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But clearly we can,
clearly the constitution--
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Yeah, yeah.
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Technically the
provision in the constitution
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only binds
government not electors.
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Now we can, do
that if we want you know
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and it you know it's
a legal qualification
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for running for office.
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But it's also a signal, it's
a signal to a constituency that
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this shouldn't
be a major criteria.
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Absolutely and
that's my point that
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that we should follow the spirit
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as well as the letter of
the religious test clause
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in how we
evaluate our candidates.
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Religion is not an
important its part of mix
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but its bad
citizenship I think to impose
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a religious litmus
test on our candidates
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and you're
talking Romney I think
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may be it was a bigger
deal in his first run then.
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Yes, but it did come up again.
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But it did come up again.
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And you know we're
at Liberty Magazine
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ran an article or two
and one we got vilified full
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because we-- I
hope with the right term
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mentioned that even
the Reverend Billy Graham
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and his
organization got sort of caught
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flatfooted on this whole thing.
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They did change and the
change was good but you know
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what change, it seemed like
it was a political expediency
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when they thought that
Romney would be the candidate.
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But I would hope that there
are other criteria than you know
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to just the religious
affiliation with someone.
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Absolutely, and
that's my second point.
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You know, in addition
to following the spirit
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as well as the letter there
is no religious test principle
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it seems to me that when
you do talk about religion
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in the course of a
campaign or in the public square
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that you ought to do it
in term of how it's relevant
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to something that
matters in the election.
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It should be a tight
fit between talking about
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religion in the
campaign and what difference
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will it make if
this person is elected.
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So its not just
theological warriorism
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that you're engaged in
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but you're actually
trying to find out more about
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how this person
is going to perform
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in the office that he
or she is running for.
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So no religious test
principle in a tight fit
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when you do talk
about religion for to
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illuminate something
that matters in the election.
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If the risk of boring you
and then alienating people
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and let me tell a
joke that I read years ago.
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I'm listening.
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You remember the Opus
cartoon, Opus penguin?
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Yeah, yes, yes.
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During one of the campaigns
I remember they had Opus,
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he got up he was the
candidate and he says,
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you know, I believe in
such and such or say lets try
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I believe in religion and what's
more I believe in religion
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twenty percent more
than my nearest candidate.
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And they said to him what do
you believe about Walrus Angels?
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And he says oh yes, I
believe in them and he is out.
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And he says religious commitment
such a dangerous thing.
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And what it told me is
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lot of this public
posturing on religion
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I think is misleading plus
its really denigrates religion.
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Just because someone says
there're good church goers
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and you know see the candidates
traipsing off to their church
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perhaps what
they would normally.
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You know well,
part of them would say
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want to appear religionist
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but I think that should be
judged on their public trust
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not primarily on what
they posture on religion.
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Yeah, and most religious
candidate real or framed
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is not necessarily
the best person to lead a
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essentially secular
governmental enterprise.
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And I'll throw in something here
and you just said your opinion.
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I've made controversy sometimes
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not inadvertently
but I walk into it.
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But, you know, I watch what's
happening on the national sphere
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particularly and politics
has become a dirty business.
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I think people not only
text inappropriate things
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but they deal with some
nefarious organizations.
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They will say one thing
to this group one to another.
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They dissemble, you know,
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the security
releases lately show
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how much double dealing
there is and it's regrettable.
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And I wonder
sometimes I truly moral upright
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Christian in
this case, you know,
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I think from a Christian
perspective could you really
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function
effectively on a national stage
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in a major political position.
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Whether you can or
not it could debate
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but I think it's a
question that needs to be asked.
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Well, I think you can but the
question is how are can you go.
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Yeah, with your
heart. With your conscience.
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Yes, I mean politics is about
compromise first and foremost.
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You know, if you're
gonna govern effectively giving
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our disagreements on so
many issues part of problems
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we have now is that people are,
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some people
aren't really comfortable
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so you got to well accommodated.
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But then what are the limits?
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Where does your
conscience stop you
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from compromising it and more?
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It's always there.
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You know, I always
say on this program that
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there are no
Christians in politics
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and that no
Christian shouldgo in.
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But I think it
begs thinking about
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that it's become a
very almost antithetical
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calling to Christian behavior.
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Shouldn't be like that.
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You know we wish
we had the, you know,
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the priestly kings in a in
a certain philosophical sense
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but it's a difficult time.
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And I think perhaps that's where
this some voter culpability.
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We shouldn't be
looking at a religious test
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but we should be more concerned
about the public morality
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or the, the morality
of our public servants.
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Not the religious affiliation
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but are they really
a trustworthy person.
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Yeah, yeah.
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And I think a lot of the time,
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yeah he belongs to
this group or is that group
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that short circuits
and it may be a very,
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very intolerant
bigoted, you know,
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retrograde sort
of an individual.
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I don't know but it's
something that it's talked about
00:11:03.48\00:11:06.93
but never really at the
nitty-gritty of my view.
00:11:06.96\00:11:08.94
We commit it
from the wrong point.
00:11:08.97\00:11:10.63
Yeah.
00:11:10.66\00:11:11.79
Well, I do think
there are people of faith
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serving and serving admirably.
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Yes, it's true. I had seen.
00:11:15.47\00:11:16.50
You have to compromises for
sure as all of us do in life.
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Yes, but I'm, I'm
glad that they're.
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Specially the married ones.
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I think we would be a
terribly impoverished body
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politic without people,
without people of faith.
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Yeah, but I'm not
saying that people the atheist
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can obviously be great leaders
and others I mean it's not that.
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And you give me the angel.
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Early on this
principle was challenged overtly
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with the election
of President Jefferson
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that election was it--
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1800.
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Yeah, 1800 I nearly said 1812
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That's the war.
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That's the war that
broke out after he left.
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But you know that
election was very contentious
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and you know I have read
the material from that time
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and he was portrayed
as an anti religionist
00:11:59.76\00:12:03.31
a growth
secularist and hey, you know,
00:12:03.34\00:12:05.18
why should we
elect such a person.
00:12:05.21\00:12:07.23
But already they had
that no religious test so
00:12:07.26\00:12:09.94
and of course he was
elected so it turned out well.
00:12:09.97\00:12:12.47
And he was
certainly not a bad president
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for the entire Untied States.
00:12:14.57\00:12:17.13
And certainly
didn't set religion
00:12:17.16\00:12:18.71
back on its heels in any way.
00:12:18.74\00:12:20.87
Whatever his own
personal religion
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and it was a little bit
unorthodox from time to time
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because you remember
he created his own Bible
00:12:25.67\00:12:27.54
he got the New Testament
cut out all the stuff that
00:12:27.57\00:12:29.94
that he though was made
up and put it back together
00:12:29.97\00:12:31.78
and he has his Jefferson Bible.
00:12:31.81\00:12:34.22
But he surely was a
friend of religious liberty.
00:12:34.25\00:12:38.45
Well, I think he
was the religious--
00:12:38.48\00:12:39.56
That's what is
important for a leader to be.
00:12:39.59\00:12:41.18
He was a friend of
individual self determination.
00:12:41.21\00:12:44.07
He didn't want to restrict
choices of other people.
00:12:44.10\00:12:47.19
But you know in those letters
I'm sure you have read them
00:12:47.22\00:12:49.28
between he and
Adams later in life
00:12:49.31\00:12:52.14
they got the discussing religion
00:12:52.17\00:12:53.40
Jefferson didn't think
religion or Christianity
00:12:53.43\00:12:55.46
would survive in America.
00:12:55.49\00:12:56.52
Right.
00:12:56.55\00:12:57.58
So it's not
Trinitarian Christianity
00:12:57.61\00:13:00.29
and it's you know he--
00:13:00.32\00:13:01.35
And I don't
remember that he specified it
00:13:01.38\00:13:02.64
but he probably was
thinking along those lines
00:13:02.67\00:13:04.54
when they were dialoging, yeah.
00:13:04.57\00:13:06.05
Right, right.
00:13:06.08\00:13:07.24
But yeah he believed in a
more visceral personal thing
00:13:07.27\00:13:10.90
and which I can't
easily identify with but it's,
00:13:10.93\00:13:13.86
it's certainly someone something
that you have to respect.
00:13:13.89\00:13:16.70
And he was a thinking person.
00:13:16.73\00:13:18.19
He wasn't a glib
dismiss of religious views.
00:13:18.22\00:13:21.77
So yeah, no
religious says republic office,
00:13:21.80\00:13:23.80
that you're right.
00:13:23.83\00:13:24.89
Along side the first amendment
that is a shining beacon
00:13:24.92\00:13:27.86
in the US constitution
that enables religious liberty.
00:13:27.89\00:13:30.90
In this case it
really inoculates
00:13:30.93\00:13:33.63
the government against
00:13:33.66\00:13:35.09
I think as far as I can go
00:13:35.12\00:13:36.82
against religious
extremism or exclusion.
00:13:36.85\00:13:40.59
And frankly I think we're
doing better on that score.
00:13:40.62\00:13:43.17
I think we are becoming
more at peace with peace
00:13:43.20\00:13:47.48
within the
religious test of principle.
00:13:47.51\00:13:49.74
You know we have two Muslims
in congress, a Buddhist, a Hindu
00:13:49.77\00:13:53.44
now couple of Nuns
and unaffiliated numbers
00:13:53.47\00:14:00.11
and we, you know,
we are okay with that.
00:14:00.14\00:14:03.30
Well most of us are okay.
00:14:03.33\00:14:04.97
Well, well.
00:14:05.00\00:14:06.03
But, yes, you're right
I think arguably on that
00:14:06.06\00:14:07.94
we're making progress.
00:14:07.97\00:14:10.08
What I see though
is a shifting of what
00:14:10.11\00:14:13.02
a public
definition of religion is.
00:14:13.05\00:14:14.85
Its not and it comes at
us from other angels too.
00:14:14.88\00:14:17.66
It's not organizational
it's more an identification
00:14:17.69\00:14:22.58
with a religious
viewpoint with the state.
00:14:22.61\00:14:25.41
I think we're closer to sort
of a pan religious patriotism.
00:14:25.44\00:14:33.09
Sometimes it's
called civil religion.
00:14:33.12\00:14:34.62
Yeah, okay, thank you.
00:14:34.65\00:14:36.28
We need, to take a break now
00:14:36.31\00:14:37.55
we will back shortly to
continue this discussion,
00:14:37.58\00:14:40.91
stay with us
we'll be right back.
00:14:40.94\00:14:42.62