Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), J. Brent Walker
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000244B
|
00:05 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:08 Before the break with guests Brent Walker 00:09 we were talking about the acronyms 00:12 the RFRA, RLUIPA, RLPA what else, 00:17 there're anymore to come. 00:18 But these are all legislative attempts to shore up 00:23 what I think the largest civil rights and religious communities 00:27 see as some dangerous compromises 00:30 or what's the word I can use diminishments 00:34 of our religious liberty in the real world. 00:37 Yeah and absolutely 00:39 and in the Workplace Religious Freedom Act 00:42 that we mentioned right at the, right at the end 00:45 it is intended to strengthen the rights of employees 00:49 to have their religious needs 00:51 accommodated by their own employers amending 00:55 Title VII at the Civil Rights Act in 1964. 00:58 Not, not going to the free exercise clause 01:00 in the first amendment put the Title VII. 01:02 And yeah in that's something 01:05 that we all favor and we have a hard time 01:08 passing it for reasons we have already suggested. 01:10 And do you think that this going back to recent Hobby host 01:13 do you think that the, the recent Supreme Court 01:18 decision that cooperations since they are individuals 01:21 and have similar rights. 01:23 Do you think that will make this religious accommodation 01:26 in the workplace more difficult or have no effect on it? 01:31 I don't know it, and will certainly be 01:33 argued in Hobby Lobby 01:36 that and that if corporations have free speech right 01:40 they ought to have free exercise rights as well. 01:43 But I must say that as you pointed out 01:46 Baptist Joint Committee was right in the middle of the 01:49 effort to convince congress to pass the 01:53 Religious Freedom Restoration Act 01:56 never in my recollection was it ever discussed 02:00 that this act was going to apply to give coverage to 02:05 for-profit commercial corporations. 02:12 You know it was always, it was always individuals of course, 02:14 churches of course, some religiously affiliated groups, 02:18 nonprofits religious cooperations 02:21 but never was it discussed 02:23 that this would afford protection to 02:26 for-profit commercial enterprises 02:28 entering the stream of commerce and trying to impose their, 02:32 the owners shareholders religious views 02:36 on third party employees. 02:39 It seems to me the workplace religious accommodation 02:45 challenge which at the moment we retired from the field of battle 02:50 really brings into conflict two very central elements 02:56 of the American experiment 02:58 disrespect for individual rights and therefore religion 03:02 and this entrepreneurial capitalistic sense 03:08 and, and a lot of people don't realize this 03:12 but the business and big business 03:17 or the, the trade and commerce 03:21 its everything for the United States. 03:23 It explains all of our foreign policy or 99.999% of it 03:29 and it's really as much a national religion 03:32 as reverence for God in my view 03:34 and I think it just close up here 03:37 and we found that in religious liberty 03:40 yes, we have the first amendment there is great respect for 03:43 but legally as you know 03:46 the stand that the employees they held to on 03:48 religious accommodation is a demonymous one. 03:50 It could be as little as dollars worth a trouble. 03:52 And reason we don't have more trouble is still in society 03:56 there is residual respect for religion 03:59 and I'm sure you're finding the same. 04:01 When Seventh-day Adventist and I know the most about 04:04 when they have an issue in the workplace 04:06 most times its resolved. 04:07 Its matter of communicating to the employer 04:10 that there are these rights under the constitution 04:13 but when its challenged and it comes down to this, 04:16 this legal demonymous standard its, its doesn't exist. 04:21 So it's really a huge difference between a public 04:24 self perception and the reality which is business at all costs. 04:27 Right. 04:28 And I think it's the ultimate test for the US really. 04:31 And yet it's getting not much push. 04:36 Yes, democracy is important for us and for you and me 04:39 I'm sure its central but as a whole for our 04:42 whole governmental structure its really business. 04:45 This is a business entity that almighty backed first 04:49 and we might be asked in essence to choose between 04:53 our dedication to the money and the instruments 04:56 that under girded it or our commitment 04:58 to a higher moral value of individual freedom. 05:02 To reset the balance between the rights of capitalists 05:05 if you will or the employer to conduct his business affairs 05:09 and the rights of the employee to be able to 05:12 practice his or her religion in the workplace. 05:16 So that balance has got now to kilter as you have suggested. 05:19 Unanimous is a pretty low standard 05:22 of the employer to have to show. 05:23 Yeah I, but thankfully I don't think it's generally known 05:26 and I hope the wrong people are not listening to this program. 05:30 But it does need the reversing but 05:32 may be we should talk a little bit about-- 05:34 since we're talking about religious rights, 05:36 rights in the workplace, 05:39 there is a new civil right. 05:40 And sometimes I'm uncomfortable 05:42 with being acquitted with these civil rights movements 05:44 but there is the civil right being enunciated 05:47 more and more strongly for gays, 05:49 lesbians and transgender and so on. 05:52 And its being put forward as sort of possible causality 05:58 of increased religious accommodations rights 06:00 again I think the straw man argument. 06:03 But you know what, do you think about that? 06:05 Because it's definitely has to be reckoned with doesn't not? 06:07 It does have to be reckoned with 06:08 but my point is you can have both. 06:10 You can both have the full panoply of civil rights 06:15 and at the same time curb out religious exemptions 06:19 for religious bodies that, that don't want to participate 06:24 in facilitating these civil rights. 06:26 So I think, I think you can have both. 06:27 Yeah, definitely you feel that way because I think 06:29 from a societal point of you its obvious 06:32 if we're going to have continued religious liberty 06:34 its gonna have coexist with gay rights. 06:36 And, you know, many people of faith Christians particularly 06:40 reading the Bible are uncomfortable 06:42 with the sociological change that represents 06:44 but they can't change it. 06:45 And on the rules of religious liberty 06:47 we have no right to impose religious 06:51 and moral construct on society. 06:54 You know, I'm not-- I mean I have every right 06:57 I think on this program to say I'm not pro-gay 07:00 but I mean we have no right as people of faith 07:02 to force other people to have viewpoint. 07:04 And so given that societies move this way 07:07 we need to seek for a way to protect our religious liberty 07:10 and to respect what society through its laws 07:14 and its morals is granted to this group. 07:16 Yeah, we live it in either way of world 07:18 where ones criminal hauling about their rights 07:21 and here is as criminal hauling their rights. 07:24 No, nobody talking past to one another 07:25 screaming past to one another 07:28 and it's got to be a both end solution. 07:30 Not either all but both end. 07:31 You got to figure out a way to get, 07:33 to get both the civil rights and religious liberty rights 07:37 in sync and give both their do. 07:40 Absolutely, well, the gay right movement or phenomenon 07:46 I think needs to be watched closely by people of faith 07:48 and the church operation as will that be used to project 07:52 into the church operation 07:54 how it can back its own marriage ceremonies, 07:56 how it, or who it hires and represents the church, 08:00 is that church going to be forced to come into line 08:05 with the states view of morality and I think that's 08:08 I believe that's a very legitimate line to draw 08:11 that what we can't-- that isn't either or isn't it. 08:14 Yeah, and there is what's called a church 08:16 the church autonomy doctrine 08:18 and it implies to all house of worship 08:19 but church autonomy doctrine 08:21 that really comes out of both of the religion clause 08:23 there is no establishment in free exercise that says 08:26 within the walls of the church 08:28 the church needs to be able to decide 08:30 issues of practice of theology of dogma of 08:37 how they're gonna view the world around them. 08:39 So that's a very, very important prophylactic 08:44 doctrine that protects the church from it. 08:47 So now I don't think the churches are gonna have to 08:51 perform same sex marriages if they don't want to 08:54 or to hire [] guys if they don't want to for religious reasons. 08:59 And so I think that doctrine is pretty solid and it has, 09:03 you know, the Supreme Court recently decided the case 09:06 none to nothing in the Hosanna-Tabor case 09:08 that dealt with those church autonomy 09:10 kinds of kinds of issues. 09:12 And if we'd say on other occasion 09:13 that was a very good decision. 09:14 That was a strong affirmation 09:17 where I think on the gay rights thing 09:20 it's gonna prove problematic for the churches 09:23 as that it's a statement I forget who made it. 09:25 You know we have seen the enemy 09:26 and he is us so something like that. 09:29 Its not outside forces pushing in it's within the church. 09:33 There is a pastor that suddenly says he is gay or a gay, 09:37 you know, a Seventh-day Adventist whatever group 09:39 and they say we, we have the right 09:41 and then resist the churches attempts 09:44 to reconcile that with its proclamation. 09:47 Yeah. 09:49 We'll see where that goes but that sort of the messy 09:51 underpinnings of this whole doctrine. 09:53 Yeah, so the real conscience is going to come 09:57 what do you do with participants in the marriage process 10:02 outside of the church. 10:03 The bakers of the cake, the supply-- 10:05 the florists who supplies the flowers 10:09 those kinds of folks are they able to 10:11 partake of the church autonomy doctrine 10:13 and I think that's enough question that's up for decision. 10:17 It does seem to me often when I read The News, 10:20 Time, News Week and other magazines that 10:24 there could be a not longer but for only acronyms 10:27 there are so many government organizations 10:29 SCOTUS, POTUS and so on 10:32 but we need to realize that behind these acronyms 10:34 there are real goings on. 10:35 And when you're talking about religious liberty 10:37 the Workplace Religious Freedom Act 10:40 the Religious Liberty Protection Act 10:44 and such things there are very battle there 10:47 protecting religious freedom. 10:49 And even in a country where there is clear 10:51 and enduring a commitment to religious freedom 10:53 as the United States 10:55 from time to time we need to revisit it 10:59 and perhaps even legislatively shore up 11:02 what seems guaranteed under the constitution 11:04 but as changeable society in its fickle 11:07 as the next generation and their understanding of something 11:11 but their fathers knew too well. 11:13 We need to protect these things and acronyms yes, 11:17 you could laugh about them but the underlined truth is vital 11:22 and we need to have religious liberty 11:24 now and forever. 11:26 And whatever that says in acronymic form fine, 11:29 but we need to have a commitment 11:31 to these enduring principles. 11:34 For Liberty Inside I'm Lincoln steed. |
Revised 2014-12-17