Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
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Before the break
with guests Brent Walker
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we were talking
about the acronyms
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the RFRA,
RLUIPA, RLPA what else,
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there're anymore to come.
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But these are all
legislative attempts to shore up
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what I think the largest civil
rights and religious communities
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see as some
dangerous compromises
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or what's the word I
can use diminishments
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of our religious
liberty in the real world.
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Yeah and absolutely
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and in the Workplace
Religious Freedom Act
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that we mentioned right
at the, right at the end
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it is intended to strengthen
the rights of employees
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to have their religious needs
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accommodated by their
own employers amending
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Title VII at the
Civil Rights Act in 1964.
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Not, not going to
the free exercise clause
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in the first
amendment put the Title VII.
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And yeah in that's something
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that we all favor
and we have a hard time
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passing it for reasons
we have already suggested.
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And do you think that this
going back to recent Hobby host
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do you think that the,
the recent Supreme Court
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decision that cooperations
since they are individuals
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and have similar rights.
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Do you think that will make
this religious accommodation
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in the workplace more difficult
or have no effect on it?
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I don't know it,
and will certainly be
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argued in Hobby Lobby
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that and that if corporations
have free speech right
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they ought to have free
exercise rights as well.
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But I must say
that as you pointed out
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Baptist Joint Committee
was right in the middle of the
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effort to convince
congress to pass the
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Religious
Freedom Restoration Act
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never in my recollection
was it ever discussed
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that this act was going
to apply to give coverage to
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for-profit
commercial corporations.
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You know it was always, it was
always individuals of course,
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churches of course, some
religiously affiliated groups,
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nonprofits
religious cooperations
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but never was it discussed
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that this would
afford protection to
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for-profit
commercial enterprises
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entering the stream of commerce
and trying to impose their,
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the owners
shareholders religious views
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on third party employees.
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It seems to me the workplace
religious accommodation
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challenge which at the moment we
retired from the field of battle
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really brings into conflict
two very central elements
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of the American experiment
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disrespect for individual
rights and therefore religion
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and this entrepreneurial
capitalistic sense
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and, and a lot of
people don't realize this
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but the
business and big business
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or the, the trade and commerce
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its everything
for the United States.
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It explains all of our
foreign policy or 99.999% of it
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and it's really as
much a national religion
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as reverence for God in my view
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and I think it
just close up here
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and we found that
in religious liberty
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yes, we have the first amendment
there is great respect for
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but legally as you know
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the stand that the
employees they held to on
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religious accommodation
is a demonymous one.
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It could be as little
as dollars worth a trouble.
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And reason we don't have
more trouble is still in society
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there is residual
respect for religion
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and I'm sure
you're finding the same.
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When Seventh-day Adventist
and I know the most about
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when they have an
issue in the workplace
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most times its resolved.
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Its matter of
communicating to the employer
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that there are these
rights under the constitution
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but when its challenged
and it comes down to this,
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this legal demonymous
standard its, its doesn't exist.
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So it's really a huge
difference between a public
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self perception and the reality
which is business at all costs.
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Right.
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And I think it's the
ultimate test for the US really.
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And yet it's
getting not much push.
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Yes, democracy is important
for us and for you and me
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I'm sure its central
but as a whole for our
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whole governmental
structure its really business.
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This is a business entity
that almighty backed first
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and we might be asked in
essence to choose between
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our dedication to the
money and the instruments
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that under girded
it or our commitment
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to a higher moral
value of individual freedom.
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To reset the balance between
the rights of capitalists
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if you will or the employer
to conduct his business affairs
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and the rights of the
employee to be able to
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practice his or her
religion in the workplace.
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So that balance has got now
to kilter as you have suggested.
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Unanimous is a
pretty low standard
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of the employer to have to show.
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Yeah I, but thankfully I
don't think it's generally known
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and I hope the wrong people are
not listening to this program.
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But it does need
the reversing but
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may be we should
talk a little bit about--
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since we're talking
about religious rights,
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rights in the workplace,
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there is a new civil right.
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And sometimes I'm uncomfortable
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with being acquitted with
these civil rights movements
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but there is the
civil right being enunciated
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more and more strongly for gays,
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lesbians and
transgender and so on.
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And its being put forward
as sort of possible causality
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of increased
religious accommodations rights
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again I think the
straw man argument.
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But you know what,
do you think about that?
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Because it's definitely has
to be reckoned with doesn't not?
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It does have to be reckoned with
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but my point is
you can have both.
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You can both have the
full panoply of civil rights
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and at the same time
curb out religious exemptions
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for religious bodies that,
that don't want to participate
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in facilitating
these civil rights.
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So I think, I
think you can have both.
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Yeah, definitely you
feel that way because I think
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from a societal
point of you its obvious
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if we're going to have
continued religious liberty
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its gonna have
coexist with gay rights.
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And, you know, many people
of faith Christians particularly
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reading the
Bible are uncomfortable
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with the sociological
change that represents
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but they can't change it.
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And on the rules
of religious liberty
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we have no right
to impose religious
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and moral construct on society.
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You know, I'm not-- I
mean I have every right
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I think on this
program to say I'm not pro-gay
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but I mean we have no
right as people of faith
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to force other
people to have viewpoint.
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And so given that
societies move this way
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we need to seek for a way to
protect our religious liberty
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and to respect what
society through its laws
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and its morals is
granted to this group.
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Yeah, we live it
in either way of world
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where ones criminal
hauling about their rights
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and here is as
criminal hauling their rights.
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No, nobody talking
past to one another
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screaming past to one another
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and it's got to be
a both end solution.
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Not either all but both end.
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You got to
figure out a way to get,
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to get both the civil rights
and religious liberty rights
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in sync and give both their do.
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Absolutely, well, the gay
right movement or phenomenon
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I think needs to be watched
closely by people of faith
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and the church operation as
will that be used to project
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into the church operation
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how it can back its
own marriage ceremonies,
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how it, or who it hires
and represents the church,
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is that church going to
be forced to come into line
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with the states view of
morality and I think that's
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I believe that's a
very legitimate line to draw
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that what we can't--
that isn't either or isn't it.
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Yeah, and there is
what's called a church
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the church autonomy doctrine
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and it implies to
all house of worship
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but church autonomy doctrine
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that really comes out of
both of the religion clause
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there is no establishment
in free exercise that says
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within the walls of the church
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the church needs
to be able to decide
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issues of practice
of theology of dogma of
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how they're gonna
view the world around them.
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So that's a very,
very important prophylactic
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doctrine that
protects the church from it.
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So now I don't think the
churches are gonna have to
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perform same sex
marriages if they don't want to
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or to hire [] guys if they don't
want to for religious reasons.
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And so I think that doctrine
is pretty solid and it has,
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you know, the Supreme
Court recently decided the case
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none to nothing in
the Hosanna-Tabor case
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that dealt with
those church autonomy
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kinds of kinds of issues.
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And if we'd say
on other occasion
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that was a very good decision.
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That was a strong affirmation
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where I think on
the gay rights thing
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it's gonna prove
problematic for the churches
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as that it's a
statement I forget who made it.
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You know we have seen the enemy
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and he is us so
something like that.
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Its not outside forces pushing
in it's within the church.
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There is a pastor that suddenly
says he is gay or a gay,
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you know, a Seventh-day
Adventist whatever group
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and they say we,
we have the right
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and then resist
the churches attempts
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to reconcile that
with its proclamation.
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Yeah.
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We'll see where that goes
but that sort of the messy
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underpinnings of
this whole doctrine.
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Yeah, so the real
conscience is going to come
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what do you do with participants
in the marriage process
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outside of the church.
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The bakers of the
cake, the supply--
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the florists who
supplies the flowers
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those kinds of
folks are they able to
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partake of the
church autonomy doctrine
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and I think that's enough
question that's up for decision.
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It does seem to me
often when I read The News,
00:10:17.89\00:10:20.63
Time, News Week and
other magazines that
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there could be a not
longer but for only acronyms
00:10:24.24\00:10:27.19
there are so many
government organizations
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SCOTUS, POTUS and so on
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but we need to realize
that behind these acronyms
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there are real goings on.
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And when you're
talking about religious liberty
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the Workplace
Religious Freedom Act
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the Religious
Liberty Protection Act
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and such things
there are very battle there
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protecting religious freedom.
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And even in a
country where there is clear
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and enduring a
commitment to religious freedom
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as the United States
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from time to time
we need to revisit it
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and perhaps even
legislatively shore up
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what seems guaranteed
under the constitution
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but as changeable
society in its fickle
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as the next generation and
their understanding of something
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but their fathers knew too well.
00:11:11.46\00:11:13.62
We need to protect
these things and acronyms yes,
00:11:13.65\00:11:17.26
you could laugh about them but
the underlined truth is vital
00:11:17.29\00:11:22.17
and we need to
have religious liberty
00:11:22.20\00:11:24.85
now and forever.
00:11:24.88\00:11:26.90
And whatever that says
in acronymic form fine,
00:11:26.93\00:11:29.63
but we need to have a commitment
00:11:29.66\00:11:31.69
to these enduring principles.
00:11:31.72\00:11:34.58
For Liberty
Inside I'm Lincoln steed.
00:11:34.61\00:11:37.99