Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), J. Brent Walker
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000243B
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00:06 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:08 Before the break with guest Brent Walker 00:12 I was hesitating to think about 00:14 what we are discussing but it was engrossing 00:15 because we were talking about 00:17 what seems like periodically the TV 00:20 and all the media are just chewing over this-- 00:23 this healthcare mandate and the objection 00:26 first from the Roman Catholic Church 00:28 then from some other church groups and latterly 00:30 from Hobby Lobby a national chain 00:34 run by Christians that feel that 00:37 this whole mandate is gonna trait on their religious rights. 00:40 Right, right. 00:42 It all seems a little bit mix 00:44 when we see it in the program to dispense 00:46 the healthcare doesn't seem to work. 00:48 Right, well. Yeah. 00:49 But sooner or later it will-- 00:50 of course they are forcing in, 00:52 if there are religious problems 00:54 we need to decide them. 00:56 Yeah, absolutely. 00:58 So, you know, the point I was wanting to make-- 01:01 you are talking about religious groups, 01:04 powerful religious groups getting exceptions 01:06 that may they didn't deserve and-- 01:08 I didn't use the word deserved. 01:09 Well. Or pushing. 01:11 That was necessary to ensure their-- 01:13 their rights of conscience and I agree-- 01:16 It was Clint Eastwood movie 01:18 where the sheriff is on the ground 01:20 he had to put this rough sheriff and he says, 01:23 I don't deserve this and Clint Eastwood says 01:25 deserve its got nothing to do with it. 01:28 So that's right now today. 01:31 That's right. 01:34 I do think there is the risk of overreaching. 01:38 I think powerful religious groups or any for that matter 01:44 are out there trying to grab more than 01:47 is necessary to ensure their rights 01:50 without prejudicing the rights of other people. 01:54 I think that there is some danger there. 01:56 I think in the long run the expression 02:00 is that "pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered," 02:04 you know if you are hoggish about rights 02:07 and you are not thinking about-- 02:08 Catch up with your-- 02:09 It will catch up with you sooner or later. 02:11 I think that it's not only wrong to start with 02:13 but its bad for free exercise of religion in the long term. 02:17 But there are also people out there 02:20 that don't think religion ought to get any exemptions. 02:23 They think the religion ought to be treated the same 02:26 as their secular counterparts across the board 02:29 and I think that's also, it's also a mistake. 02:32 And if-- yeah, you are right. 02:33 Sometimes religion needs an exemption 02:34 to protect a government-- 02:37 protective from their government imposed burden. 02:38 Well, this is the commander of the United States 02:41 pursue the separatist model to his limit, 02:44 you will destroy religion out 02:46 but it's a plunge fact of western society 02:50 since the reformation that religion ruling before. 02:53 Religion has a cherish place 02:54 and it is seen as a cultural good. 02:58 So yes, you don't want to harm religion 03:01 and you and I believe that-- 03:03 that healthy separation will free up religious communities 03:09 and organizations to develop more fully. 03:12 So, yes it's not a matter of inhabiting one or the other 03:15 and government shouldn't be 03:17 threatened by religious sentiment. 03:18 True religion is as the Apostle Paul said 03:21 should respect the civil authorities fully. 03:23 Right. Right. 03:25 So, yes, I mean there are a lot of individuals 03:27 and groups out there that camp so hard 03:30 on the no establishment principle 03:34 that they are actually hostile to religion 03:36 and they forget about the needs of free exercise 03:39 and there are other groups that 03:40 that camp down so firmly on-- 03:42 on free exercise that they forget about 03:45 the importance of no establishment. 03:47 You know, 03:48 one comes into a completely secular government 03:52 as hostile to religion 03:53 the other one turns in favor of theocracy. 03:58 So, we don't want either of two strings. 04:01 We want those in the sensible centre 04:03 like the Baptist Joint Committee or et cetera like said 04:05 I a certain faith for instance those 04:07 that think both of those principles 04:09 in establishing their faith is actual report. 04:11 Are there any familiar aided in liberty 04:13 is very often our seemingly fellow travelers 04:18 are more seculars and its not the word secular 04:21 but you know some of them are arguing 04:23 for the separation of the church and state too. 04:25 We do it, we leave out of respect for the constitution 04:29 for the truths the Bible and in respect for history 04:33 and so but we are not against religion hardly. 04:35 But sometimes that makes us 04:37 fellow travelers with more secular people. 04:39 And by the way, I been had said this before in this program 04:42 but I really think that the, 04:44 so called secular animosity 04:45 the religion in the United States 04:47 is a strongman as you well know, 04:50 the freedom from Religion Foundation is the foundation 04:55 which is responsible for any number of test cases. 04:58 Since they are a small organization 04:59 and I don't think radical seculars 05:02 who want to chase religion out of society 05:04 are very many at all, 05:05 it's not a large part of the population. 05:08 The best I could say or the worse perhaps 05:10 is that there is a growing number of the population 05:12 that are sort of turn deaf on religious matters. 05:14 They are not really religiously involved. 05:16 I just don't believe that American culture 05:19 is in anyway characterized by antiquity the religion. 05:22 Yeah. It's the first-- 05:23 There are lot of talk these days about 05:25 the none's not the n-u-n-s but the n-o-n-e-'s 05:29 the none of the above is on religion that 05:32 nowadays almost 20 percent of the American 05:36 public say they have no religious affiliation 05:40 but only if fraction of that is are atheist. 05:44 That reflects another dynamic within the church. 05:46 People are not institutionally oriented 05:48 they are more freelance religionists 05:50 but all the surveys that I have seen on people 05:52 what they believe in God or angels or miracles 05:55 it's still more spiritual. 05:56 It's spiritual but not religious. 05:57 Right, and you know from the point of view 06:00 of orthodoxy in particular my orthodoxy 06:02 that troubles me there are people 06:04 that need to be educated little on the Bible 06:07 but that doesn't mean they are against religion, 06:09 not at all. 06:11 In fact, they think they are very open to. 06:12 We don't-- we don't have a segment 06:14 the 20 percent segment of the American public 06:16 that's hostile to religion that's absolutely. 06:18 I don't believe so. 06:19 So I think in some ways its easy 06:22 to like I said a strong man thing 06:24 that these few challenges that are aggressively persuade 06:27 that very small groups special interest, 06:30 special disinterested religion and even religious people. 06:34 I have been to conferences 06:35 where we talk about secularism it's the big danger. 06:38 I just don't think secularism 06:41 in the antagonistic sense is really a problem. 06:45 What I have tried to say 06:47 and I don't know if you heard me 06:48 but I think religion without spirituality 06:51 is a huge danger 06:53 because that's what's happening 06:55 in lot of the Middle East, 06:56 radical Islamist I don't see any great evidence 06:59 that they have-- 07:01 deeply spiritual sensitivities they are religious phonetics, 07:04 so religion run them up bad business. 07:07 But if we can respect those principles 07:10 the character early Baptist, early Adventists 07:13 where there was deep personal spirituality, 07:15 respect for the state, respect for the organization 07:19 and the calling of the church 07:21 I think it will largely self correct them. 07:23 And the American culture has deep reserves 07:27 of that sort of thing can still. 07:29 Yeah, well, so I agree you will have a small group 07:35 on one into of the spectrum 07:38 that they will like for religion to go away, 07:42 you know, not that many 07:44 but some and some on the other side 07:46 they wanted theocracy, 07:47 not a lot of them but some of them. 07:49 And by the way 07:50 those who want a theocracy want their own religion. 07:54 Of course. 07:55 You know, nobody wants the theocracy 07:56 of somebody else religion 07:57 and it's not predecessor at the Baptist Joint Committee, 08:00 James Dunn used to say, and they all want to be theo. 08:03 So, you do have those extremists on this but yeah, 08:10 I know whole percent of this 75, 80, 85 percentage 08:13 American public are somewhere in between. 08:16 Sometimes apoptotic, sometimes engaged 08:18 but somewhere in between. 08:21 So how good are you playing prophet or programmatic? 08:25 Terrible, I'm always wrong. 08:27 Well, I'm the Supreme Court. 08:28 I'm good at doing-- 08:29 But where do you think this is going on these couple of cases 08:32 that are coming up before them? 08:34 What do you think that 08:36 where are they going to tip their hand? 08:37 Gosh, I don't know. 08:42 My cute answer these days 08:43 is I know the outcome of this came far before 08:48 and I don't tell you which of these is gonna come. 08:51 That even is a prediction because as we mentioned-- 08:54 you mentioned out on another program 08:56 Hosanna-Tabor was very one sided in ferry like 09:01 the church of prerogatives. 09:02 So you think that these are likely to be split. 09:04 Yes, it's just so hard to say 09:07 and I was even there for Greece argument 09:09 in the Greece case 09:10 and listen to the questions that were post 09:13 and there are lot of that was advocacy going on. 09:15 Of course you can't always tell 09:17 which way the justice is going to. 09:19 Did Justice Thomas say anything? 09:20 He didn't not. No. 09:22 He never would not never, rarely, 09:25 almost never says anything 09:26 but everybody else was very much engaged. 09:29 I'm just joking because it's a common joke 09:31 that I mean I have heard him speak at other occasions 09:34 and I means he is very well artistic. 09:38 And reason that I haven't figured out 09:40 he doesn't speak during the hearings. 09:43 Yeah, I disagree with him 09:45 on almost all of his opinions 09:47 and certainly in the church state area 09:50 but he writes-- 09:51 he writes thoughtful opinions 09:52 and he gives a good speech and so. 09:55 So, anyhow we are waiting with bated breath 09:58 for this decision rather. 10:00 Yeah, yes, yeah both the affordable care act, 10:05 Hobby Lobby case 10:06 we don't know how that's gonna turn out 10:07 but its going to be an important decision 10:10 for the court to address. 10:12 So we will be watching and continuing 10:16 to file beliefs court in the court in hope 10:19 that the proper result will come forth. 10:25 A few days ago, I stood by the pool of Bethesda, 10:30 in modern day Israel 10:32 and thought about that long ago time 10:35 when Jesus asked for help said to a lying men, 10:39 rise take off your bed and walk. 10:42 Well, we live in a modern world 10:44 and miracles are not as accessible to most people, 10:46 perhaps like our faith is some of it 10:49 but we have a practical consideration 10:52 and it is a great irony that many of the care givers 10:55 from a faith prospective are more troubled 10:59 about how the state will interact 11:01 what they are doing than they are motivated 11:03 to continue their disinterested service for their fellowmen. 11:09 There are real issues at play in the so called ObamaCare 11:14 and the provisions to provide things 11:16 that may be against the conscience 11:18 of some people of faith. 11:20 But we need to remember that the larger issue 11:23 is providing the concern for other people. 11:25 The underlying issue is not of compulsion 11:28 to do something wrong. 11:30 The underlying issue is whether 11:32 state generosity provides the healing 11:34 or charitable disinterested service 11:37 by people of faith provides much needed help 11:40 and healing for the lame among us. 11:44 For Liberty Insider, I'm Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2014-12-17