Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
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Before the break
with guest Brent Walker
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I was hesitating to think about
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what we are
discussing but it was engrossing
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because we were talking about
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what seems like
periodically the TV
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and all the media are
just chewing over this--
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this healthcare
mandate and the objection
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first from the
Roman Catholic Church
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then from some other
church groups and latterly
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from Hobby
Lobby a national chain
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run by Christians that feel that
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this whole mandate is gonna
trait on their religious rights.
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Right, right.
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It all seems a little bit mix
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when we see it in
the program to dispense
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the healthcare
doesn't seem to work.
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Right, well. Yeah.
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But sooner or later it will--
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of course they are forcing in,
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if there are religious problems
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we need to decide them.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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So, you know, the
point I was wanting to make--
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you are talking
about religious groups,
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powerful religious
groups getting exceptions
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that may they
didn't deserve and--
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I didn't use the word deserved.
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Well. Or pushing.
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That was
necessary to ensure their--
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their rights of
conscience and I agree--
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It was Clint Eastwood movie
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where the
sheriff is on the ground
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he had to put this
rough sheriff and he says,
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I don't deserve this
and Clint Eastwood says
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deserve its got
nothing to do with it.
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So that's right now today.
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That's right.
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I do think there is
the risk of overreaching.
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I think powerful religious
groups or any for that matter
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are out there
trying to grab more than
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is necessary to
ensure their rights
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without prejudicing
the rights of other people.
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I think that there
is some danger there.
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I think in the
long run the expression
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is that "pigs get
fat, hogs get slaughtered,"
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you know if you are
hoggish about rights
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and you are not thinking about--
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Catch up with your--
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It will catch up
with you sooner or later.
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I think that it's not
only wrong to start with
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but its bad for free exercise
of religion in the long term.
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But there are
also people out there
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that don't think religion
ought to get any exemptions.
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They think the religion
ought to be treated the same
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as their secular
counterparts across the board
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and I think that's
also, it's also a mistake.
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And if-- yeah, you are right.
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Sometimes
religion needs an exemption
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to protect a government--
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protective from their
government imposed burden.
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Well, this is the
commander of the United States
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pursue the
separatist model to his limit,
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you will destroy religion out
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but it's a plunge
fact of western society
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since the reformation
that religion ruling before.
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Religion has a cherish place
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and it is seen
as a cultural good.
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So yes, you don't
want to harm religion
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and you and I believe that--
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that healthy separation will
free up religious communities
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and organizations
to develop more fully.
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So, yes it's not a matter
of inhabiting one or the other
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and government shouldn't be
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threatened by
religious sentiment.
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True religion is as
the Apostle Paul said
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should respect the
civil authorities fully.
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Right. Right.
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So, yes, I mean there
are a lot of individuals
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and groups out
there that camp so hard
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on the no
establishment principle
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that they are
actually hostile to religion
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and they forget about
the needs of free exercise
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and there are other groups that
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that camp down so firmly on--
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on free exercise
that they forget about
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the importance
of no establishment.
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You know,
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one comes into a
completely secular government
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as hostile to religion
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the other one turns
in favor of theocracy.
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So, we don't want
either of two strings.
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We want those in
the sensible centre
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like the Baptist Joint
Committee or et cetera like said
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I a certain faith
for instance those
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that think both
of those principles
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in establishing their
faith is actual report.
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Are there any
familiar aided in liberty
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is very often our
seemingly fellow travelers
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are more seculars and
its not the word secular
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but you know some
of them are arguing
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for the separation of
the church and state too.
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We do it, we leave out of
respect for the constitution
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for the truths the Bible
and in respect for history
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and so but we are not
against religion hardly.
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But sometimes that makes us
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fellow travelers
with more secular people.
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And by the way, I been had
said this before in this program
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but I really think that the,
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so called secular animosity
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the religion in
the United States
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is a strongman as you well know,
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the freedom from Religion
Foundation is the foundation
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which is responsible for
any number of test cases.
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Since they are a
small organization
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and I don't
think radical seculars
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who want to chase
religion out of society
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are very many at all,
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it's not a large
part of the population.
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The best I could
say or the worse perhaps
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is that there is a
growing number of the population
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that are sort of turn
deaf on religious matters.
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They are not really
religiously involved.
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I just don't believe
that American culture
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is in anyway characterized
by antiquity the religion.
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Yeah. It's the first--
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There are lot of
talk these days about
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the none's not the
n-u-n-s but the n-o-n-e-'s
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the none of the
above is on religion that
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nowadays almost 20
percent of the American
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public say they have
no religious affiliation
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but only if fraction
of that is are atheist.
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That reflects another
dynamic within the church.
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People are not
institutionally oriented
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they are more
freelance religionists
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but all the surveys
that I have seen on people
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what they believe in
God or angels or miracles
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it's still more spiritual.
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It's spiritual
but not religious.
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Right, and you know
from the point of view
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of orthodoxy in
particular my orthodoxy
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that troubles
me there are people
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that need to be
educated little on the Bible
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but that doesn't mean
they are against religion,
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not at all.
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In fact, they think
they are very open to.
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We don't-- we
don't have a segment
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the 20 percent
segment of the American public
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that's hostile to
religion that's absolutely.
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I don't believe so.
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So I think in some ways its easy
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to like I said
a strong man thing
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that these few challenges
that are aggressively persuade
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that very small
groups special interest,
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special disinterested religion
and even religious people.
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I have been to conferences
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where we talk about
secularism it's the big danger.
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I just don't think secularism
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in the antagonistic
sense is really a problem.
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What I have tried to say
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and I don't know if you heard me
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but I think
religion without spirituality
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is a huge danger
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because that's what's happening
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in lot of the Middle East,
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radical Islamist I
don't see any great evidence
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that they have--
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deeply spiritual sensitivities
they are religious phonetics,
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so religion run
them up bad business.
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But if we can
respect those principles
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the character early
Baptist, early Adventists
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where there was deep
personal spirituality,
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respect for the state,
respect for the organization
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and the calling of the church
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I think it will
largely self correct them.
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And the American
culture has deep reserves
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of that sort of thing can still.
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Yeah, well, so I agree
you will have a small group
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on one into of the spectrum
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that they will like
for religion to go away,
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you know, not that many
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but some and
some on the other side
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they wanted theocracy,
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not a lot of
them but some of them.
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And by the way
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those who want a theocracy
want their own religion.
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Of course.
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You know, nobody
wants the theocracy
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of somebody else religion
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and it's not predecessor at
the Baptist Joint Committee,
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James Dunn used to say,
and they all want to be theo.
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So, you do have those
extremists on this but yeah,
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I know whole percent of
this 75, 80, 85 percentage
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American public are
somewhere in between.
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Sometimes
apoptotic, sometimes engaged
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but somewhere in between.
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So how good are you
playing prophet or programmatic?
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Terrible, I'm always wrong.
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Well, I'm the Supreme Court.
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I'm good at doing--
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But where do you think this is
going on these couple of cases
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that are coming up before them?
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What do you think that
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where are they
going to tip their hand?
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Gosh, I don't know.
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My cute answer these days
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is I know the outcome
of this came far before
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and I don't tell you
which of these is gonna come.
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That even is a prediction
because as we mentioned--
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you mentioned out
on another program
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Hosanna-Tabor was very
one sided in ferry like
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the church of prerogatives.
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So you think that
these are likely to be split.
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Yes, it's just so hard to say
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and I was even
there for Greece argument
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in the Greece case
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and listen to the
questions that were post
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and there are lot of
that was advocacy going on.
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Of course you can't always tell
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which way the
justice is going to.
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Did Justice Thomas say anything?
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He didn't not. No.
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He never would
not never, rarely,
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almost never says anything
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but everybody else
was very much engaged.
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I'm just joking
because it's a common joke
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that I mean I have heard
him speak at other occasions
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and I means he is
very well artistic.
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And reason that I
haven't figured out
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he doesn't speak
during the hearings.
00:09:40.92\00:09:43.17
Yeah, I disagree with him
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on almost all of his opinions
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and certainly in
the church state area
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but he writes--
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he writes thoughtful opinions
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and he gives a
good speech and so.
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So, anyhow we are
waiting with bated breath
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for this decision rather.
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Yeah, yes, yeah both
the affordable care act,
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Hobby Lobby case
00:10:05.20\00:10:06.37
we don't know how
that's gonna turn out
00:10:06.40\00:10:07.76
but its going to be
an important decision
00:10:07.79\00:10:10.84
for the court to address.
00:10:10.87\00:10:12.89
So we will be
watching and continuing
00:10:12.92\00:10:16.19
to file beliefs
court in the court in hope
00:10:16.22\00:10:19.08
that the proper
result will come forth.
00:10:19.11\00:10:22.63
A few days ago, I stood
by the pool of Bethesda,
00:10:25.37\00:10:30.65
in modern day Israel
00:10:30.68\00:10:32.44
and thought about
that long ago time
00:10:32.47\00:10:34.97
when Jesus asked for
help said to a lying men,
00:10:35.00\00:10:39.56
rise take off your bed and walk.
00:10:39.59\00:10:42.41
Well, we live in a modern world
00:10:42.44\00:10:44.14
and miracles are not as
accessible to most people,
00:10:44.17\00:10:46.86
perhaps like our
faith is some of it
00:10:46.89\00:10:49.44
but we have a
practical consideration
00:10:49.47\00:10:52.00
and it is a great irony
that many of the care givers
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from a faith
prospective are more troubled
00:10:55.48\00:10:59.34
about how the
state will interact
00:10:59.37\00:11:01.25
what they are doing
than they are motivated
00:11:01.28\00:11:03.51
to continue their disinterested
service for their fellowmen.
00:11:03.54\00:11:09.14
There are real issues at
play in the so called ObamaCare
00:11:09.17\00:11:14.76
and the
provisions to provide things
00:11:14.79\00:11:16.78
that may be
against the conscience
00:11:16.81\00:11:18.64
of some people of faith.
00:11:18.67\00:11:20.21
But we need to
remember that the larger issue
00:11:20.24\00:11:23.03
is providing the
concern for other people.
00:11:23.06\00:11:25.96
The underlying
issue is not of compulsion
00:11:25.99\00:11:28.74
to do something wrong.
00:11:28.77\00:11:30.18
The underlying issue is whether
00:11:30.21\00:11:32.25
state generosity
provides the healing
00:11:32.28\00:11:34.96
or charitable
disinterested service
00:11:34.99\00:11:37.18
by people of faith
provides much needed help
00:11:37.21\00:11:40.40
and healing for
the lame among us.
00:11:40.43\00:11:44.56
For Liberty
Insider, I'm Lincoln Steed.
00:11:44.59\00:11:48.05