Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is a program
bring you discussion,
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news and up-to-date
information on religious liberty
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in the United States to
be sure but around the world
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as things come up.
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My name is Lincoln Steed
editor of Liberty Magazine.
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And my guest on this
program is Brent Walker,
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executive director of
the Baptist Joint Committee
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for Religious Freedom,
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a group and an individual
that we deal with a lot
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so it's my pleasure to
have you on the program, Brent.
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Thank you, Lincoln.
It's good to be here.
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There is many things
that we could talk about
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and I want to
extend our discussion
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to some other programs
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but there is something
that's been in the news
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for a long time now this--
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this ObamaCare for
what of a better term
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and spearheaded mostly
by the Roman Catholic Church
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but joined by even
businesses entities
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like Hobby Lobby and that,
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there are
religious sensibilities
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seem to have been
stirred by some of the mandates
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in this healthcare thing.
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How do you see this is
affecting religious liberty?
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Is there a real issue or
its some what manufactured?
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Well, I think both. I
think there is a real issue.
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You think exactly
my way in one word.
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It may go little bit
too far in some respects.
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Yes, this is
dealing with that part
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of the first amendment
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that protects the
free exercise of religion.
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The first 16 worlds
in the first amendment
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say Congress shall make no law
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respecting an
establishment of religion,
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or prohibiting the
free exercise thereof.
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Those two-- two
clauses working in tandem,
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one keeping government
from trying to promote religion,
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one keeping government--
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trying to keep government
from putting down religion
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but requiring government
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to maintain a
posture of neutrality
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and allow people of faith
to practice their religion
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unaided and
unhindered by government.
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Well, this is the
issue that you rise
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is a free exercise
issue allegedly that--
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that it violets the free
exercise rights of churches,
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houses of worship,
religious organizations
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that have--
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religious believes
against contraception.
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Your listeners may know that
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the affordable care
act does require employers
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with 50 or more
employees to provide insurance
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to cover contraception
for female employees.
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The Obama administration
though right up front said
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we are not gonna make that apply
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to religious organization.
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Yeah, they tried
to get exception.
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Well, they did.
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There was an
exception for churches
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and church type organizations.
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Catholic Church is
the most visible and vocal
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that we are not covered
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but how about the religiously
affiliated organizations
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not in the house of
worship but related to it.
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Catholic charities,
social service agencies,
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hospitals,
religiously affiliated
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colleges and
universities how about them?
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They also requested
that kind of coverage
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but they are little
bit out side the inside.
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But severe with the-- further
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with the Hobby Lobby this is a--
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Well, but even
before we get with respect
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to the second concentric circle,
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the accommodation that
was made was that okay,
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well you don't have to--
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employer you don't
have to provide this service
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if you find it objectionable
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but you got to
permit an insurance company
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to come in and
provide that laterally.
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So-- that not even,
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not even pay for
the insurance premium
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but the mandate with
the insurance company
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will come in.
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We thought that was a--
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a proper accommodation of
religion in that second tier.
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Catholic Church
still objected to it.
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They thought ought
to be treated like--
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like the inner circle but--
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it appeared to be a
very thoughtful accommodation
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of both the religious
columns of the employers
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and the needs of the employee.
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They were
religiously affiliated.
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Do you get the feeling
on the catholic position
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because there are several popes,
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they have been very
vocal all around the world.
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I mean, not just
within the US on contraception
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you know, their views
on contraception and I--
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I get the distinct
feeling in this debate
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on the healthcare mandate
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that the Roman Catholic Church
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really is wanting
to project their view
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on the whole society not just--
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I think that's --
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There are on members
which they have a great trouble
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with not just
their own employees,
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not just those that
come into the institution
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but they really they don't
accept that position period
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so they would
want to enlarge it.
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But when you were talking
I was thinking about a case
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and I wish I
could remember the case
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but there has been
several but I remember one
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where there was a
fairly large company
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run by some very
dedicated and sincere Christians
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and they provided
religious instruction
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and other outreach
to their employees.
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And some of the employees
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found it onerous and objected
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and it was definitively
decided this was improper.
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Yes, right.
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Under title seven of
the civil rights action 1964
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you know, there are
barriers to that conductivity.
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There is-- It
wasn't even close court.
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You can't discriminate
on the bases of region
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employees
religious requirements--
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It just came to me how does
that really differ structurally,
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a non Christian or a different
professing person of faith
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joins a company
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and the company
is going to tell them
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how publicly mandated,
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you know, what sort of publicly
mandated treatment they can get.
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They made a religious decision
for a person seems to be.
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Yeah, but let me finish one
thought in that title seven.
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Employers
generally can't discriminate
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in the bases of region
but religious employers can--
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can discriminate.
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So there is a call about there.
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It sort of mirrors
what we have been talking
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about that the church is exempt
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from the
affordable care acts mandate,
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the gravitating religiously
affiliated or accommodated
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in the sense
that I had suggested
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by having to allow
the insurance company
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to come in and
provide the coverage.
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Now, what you're
talking about as a third circle,
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we are not talking about
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the church or
religious affiliates
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but for profit commercial
cooperation's engaged in--
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in enterprise in
our capitalistic system
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that the owners the stockholders
of these cooperation's
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may want to run
it kind of out of
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Christian motivation to be sure,
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may be even some
Christian principles
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but its in a different--
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different arena when
you are talking about
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for-profit not
for-profit religious groups
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but for-profit cooperation's
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engaged in the
stream of commerce.
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So far we have removed from this
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further removed
from the central.
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Whether the owners,
whether the stockholders,
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for their own
religious reasons to justify
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or insisting the
point imposing that
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belief on the woman
employees way down the line.
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True after all we are
hired not with regard to--
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to their religion
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but with we
respect to their ability
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to promote the business
adjectives of the cooperation
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and that's the case that--
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that is going to
the Supreme Court.
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The Hobby Lobby case
the Supreme Court has--
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has said that it
will take the case.
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Probably will be argued
sometime in January or February
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and of 2014 and then decided
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in a matter of the
few months of that,
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So that's gonna be
a interesting question
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on not just the
free exercise clause
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but the Religious
Freedom Restoration Act
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that we know
we're gonna talk about
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that was passed by
congress 20 years ago
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to strengthen the protections
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that sort of had been taken away
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from the free exercise
clause by the Supreme Court
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in the native American
peyote case back in 1990,
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we can talk about that but--
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Kindly reverse the
debate we started discussing.
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But the Religious Freedom
Restoration Act will be--
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will be one of the acts under
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which the case will be argued
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but Hobby Lobby
and the question is,
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whether a for-profit
cooperation is a "person"
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under the Religious Freedom
Restoration Act whether the--
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the rights of the owners,
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the share holders are
substantially burdened
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by having to
provide their service.
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So they can now
burden someone else?
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Yes, and whether the government
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has a sufficiently
compelling interest
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in not allowing that to happen.
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I would think the
government would argue
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because they
feel completed enough
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to pass this whole
legislation to provide this--
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and I'm not
particularly in favor
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of this
contraceptive treatment or not
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but the dynamic here make it,
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you know, I have
thought about it a few times
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and have never
read this anywhere
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but it strikes me as
coming perilously close
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to what over the years
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I have heard some people say
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that they wouldn't pay taxes
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because the taxes are used
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by the
government to do something
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that's against their principles.
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Right.
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And you know, no one is
getting away with that one.
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Generally it
doesn't work of course, no.
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And in fact,
periodically I have people
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that are probably
mostly internet readers
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call up saying that you know,
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they don't think they
have to pay income tax
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because it's not authorized
at all the rest of the--
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Right.
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They always find out they
kept that this accountability
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and seems to me
that the insurance
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because it covers
that it's not the same
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as you delivering that
service to that person.
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Your employer may or may
not take advantage of that,
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that's up to their
conscious and your conscious
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is not troubled
because you haven't given.
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So, I think to me
it's very tangential
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but there is a
bigger issue of plan.
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I think the
issue in some regards
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is enlarging of the influence
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and power of
religious entities in society.
00:10:45.66\00:10:49.83
I keep coming back and be
interested in your comment.
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Are you thinking that--
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that first exemption
should not be in place?
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Sometimes I think that.
00:10:57.33\00:10:58.52
Yeah, yeah, I--
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I think it was proper to
exempt that first circle.
00:11:01.01\00:11:02.64
Protective-- yeah,
Hosanna-Tabor is very good
00:11:02.67\00:11:06.79
but this is why I
bring up this case
00:11:06.82\00:11:09.03
and I have discussed in another
program here the case of,
00:11:09.06\00:11:12.88
you know, we have
it in the namesake
00:11:12.91\00:11:16.68
advocacy group today
00:11:16.71\00:11:17.89
the Beckets the
Thomas Becket story
00:11:17.92\00:11:20.83
and his challenge with the king.
00:11:20.86\00:11:22.17
Back then the church,
ran its own civil courts
00:11:22.20\00:11:26.11
and there was a
direct conflict between the--
00:11:26.14\00:11:29.11
the governments civil courts
and the church civil courts.
00:11:29.14\00:11:32.11
They didn't just try religious
matters in the church court
00:11:32.14\00:11:34.33
they could try a civil
matter they would like,
00:11:34.36\00:11:35.85
the priest committed murder.
00:11:35.88\00:11:36.91
He come up
before the church court
00:11:36.94\00:11:38.81
rather than state court.
00:11:38.84\00:11:40.29
And if we are not
careful if the any church
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or any church
prerogative with large
00:11:45.21\00:11:47.56
but different denominations
00:11:47.59\00:11:49.16
so the stats having
the trump cut on things
00:11:49.19\00:11:52.17
that the
government would normally do
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they you will have that
classic power struggle again.
00:11:54.33\00:11:56.74
To me it's a
backdoor way of establishment.
00:11:56.77\00:11:59.73
It's really a coup,
00:11:59.76\00:12:01.06
establishment
by coup in essence.
00:12:01.09\00:12:04.67
Many, many coups at this stage
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I shouldn't overwrite it
but it's an interesting dynamic.
00:12:05.96\00:12:09.23
Lord knows I would
never advocate anything
00:12:09.26\00:12:10.96
even smack of the theocracy
00:12:10.99\00:12:12.90
and I think that's the
logical outcome of the you know,
00:12:12.93\00:12:16.63
the popes above
the king kind of a--
00:12:16.66\00:12:18.50
kind of a
attitude but I do think
00:12:18.53\00:12:21.22
that if free
exercise of religion is going
00:12:21.25\00:12:24.78
to have a full
blow full orbed meaning
00:12:24.81\00:12:30.77
and meaning for
protection we have got to say,
00:12:30.80\00:12:36.56
its okay sometimes
with the government
00:12:36.59\00:12:38.25
to provide an
exemption for religious practice
00:12:38.28\00:12:42.88
to treat religion differently.
00:12:42.91\00:12:44.42
If you just treat religion
the same as everybody else
00:12:44.45\00:12:47.14
you are not gonna have
much protection for religious--
00:12:47.17\00:12:48.45
Oh, I think you
are agree that this--
00:12:48.48\00:12:50.69
There is got to be--
00:12:50.72\00:12:51.78
Assumptions are concession
that enables religious practice.
00:12:51.81\00:12:55.00
And even powerful
religious groups should be able
00:12:55.03\00:12:58.10
to get exemptions
when they deserve one.
00:12:58.13\00:13:00.08
Now logic is, is their,
00:13:00.11\00:13:01.43
particularly for
the minorities that
00:13:01.46\00:13:03.76
But we shouldn't allow
powerful religious groups
00:13:03.79\00:13:06.33
to grasp it more and
more exemptions as soon as
00:13:06.36\00:13:10.04
because again the history
of medieval Europe shows.
00:13:10.07\00:13:14.85
I mean even the worst excess
of the state church allied
00:13:14.88\00:13:19.98
with the civil powers
during the Middle Ages.
00:13:20.01\00:13:23.05
Yes, it was Babylon that started
00:13:23.08\00:13:24.31
but it started little bit
by vivid didn't a rifle blown
00:13:24.34\00:13:27.24
and I don't think
generally speaking
00:13:27.27\00:13:29.58
that it arrived
with a bad intention
00:13:29.61\00:13:33.26
these were religious societies
00:13:33.29\00:13:36.16
that had great
respect for religion
00:13:36.19\00:13:38.06
so that crept in on them.
00:13:38.09\00:13:39.20
Yeah, yeah.
00:13:39.23\00:13:40.26
Its human nature
it's not even particularly
00:13:40.29\00:13:43.07
a church structure question.
00:13:43.10\00:13:45.35
Human nature tends to,
you know, what it wants
00:13:45.38\00:13:48.60
and if human nature
is allied with the church
00:13:48.63\00:13:51.78
if left untrammeled it
will tend to swell out the state
00:13:51.81\00:13:55.40
and the state
the same way around.
00:13:55.43\00:13:57.17
And so we need this
protective first amendment
00:13:57.20\00:13:59.22
and other legal and as
well as sociological diverse
00:13:59.25\00:14:03.04
I think to-- to keep us now--
00:14:03.07\00:14:05.10
in our within our behind our
garden walls right out of edges.
00:14:05.13\00:14:10.51
I see our time in this
first part is drifted away
00:14:10.54\00:14:13.60
so we will take a break
now but please come back
00:14:13.63\00:14:16.17
and we will
continue this discussion
00:14:16.20\00:14:18.08
of some of the ongoing cases
00:14:18.11\00:14:20.55
that test the
separation of church and state
00:14:20.58\00:14:22.38
and religious
freedom in the United States.
00:14:22.41\00:14:24.09