Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
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Before the break
with guest Brent Walker
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among other things we'd settled
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on a bit of a
discussion of something
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that I have heard
lot lately and in fact
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more and more the
common good a term
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that something is
for the common good.
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Right.
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And I was saying
that should stay--
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what I would call
majoritarian principle.
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You know, in a democracy
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or in a constitutional
republic more specifically
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usually that what
the majority say is just
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how we resolve
issues in conflict
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but when it comes to
the rights of conscience
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and the right to
insist that the government
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does not take sides
in matters of religion
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or favor one
religion over another.
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You know, that idea
is counter majoritarian.
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Yeah, you are right.
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It's there to protect
the rights of the minority.
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It even on the US as the whole.
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And I have, I
mean you are a lawyer
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and I can't really
presume to tell you.
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You have been a
lawyer, you're lawyer anytime.
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But I studied American
government with great interest
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and it seems to
me that most of the,
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the founding fathers had a deep
fear of majoritarian tendencies.
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It wasn't that it was included.
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They saw it as a
danger and remember
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that they were
looking at what eventually
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and if he is late up build
up in the French revolution
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with the tyranny
of the, of the mob
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that horrible directions.
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So the, yes the peoples voices
to be heard in the United States
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but everything from
the presidential election.
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Because every year
I, every year election
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I listen to this in
it aggravate some people
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that the majority
seems to be disregarded.
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The whole structure is to
defuse the majoritarian view.
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If it was the majoritarian view
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none of our
presidential elections
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would turn out the
same way in my view
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because of the
huge population centres
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if I would just
numbers would think
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very differently
than Middle America.
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But it's to spread the view
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to have a
representative opinion.
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And our goal it would
have been president, right?
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Absolutely, whether
that would have been good.
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Who know, it
might be yeah, exactly.
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The ozone layer
might be different.
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I don't know.
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But he got the
majority of the Bush.
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Internet when had been invented.
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Yes then
getting the White House.
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Now I don't think it's a
bad thing or a good thing
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it's just a, its just well,
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it has implications
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but it is a
plain fact of history
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that representative
government is not same as,
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as the role of the majority.
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You're right.
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You would hope that it
doesn't in its largest sense fly
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in the face of the
view of the majority
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then you can insipient
revolution on your hands.
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But it's on as you
said on religious liberty
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this is where a particularly
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it can protect the
minority against the majority.
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Yes, yeah and at the risk
of being too loyally on this
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I like to think
of the constitution
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as being a majoritarian document
because it does cough war.
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Well its ratification of course.
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Yes, but even
within the forequarters
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of the constitution
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you have got checks and balances
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and separation of powers
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and all kinds of
anti majoritarian
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checks and hedges.
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But they think of the
bill of rights as the,
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the anti majoritarian document
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that counter
opposes the majoritarian
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features of the constitution.
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And those rights
outlined in the bill of rights
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are counter majoritarian.
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They depend on the
world of no majority
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for their effectiveness.
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So there're two documents
kind of go together very nicely.
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It dwells me a
little at a recent program
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I did get on to this but
one of the most shocking things
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that I have
observed in recent years
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was that public
reading of the constitution
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by the
legislators did you see that.
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I have seen that.
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I'm still
really from that. Sure.
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It was abundantly clear that
at least of those participants
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there were many
huge number of them
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didn't seem to be
very familiar with,
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with the
language they misquoted,
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they misread, they
repeated, they omitted,
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you know, I think if I
was their grade school teacher
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I've been not impressed.
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See it would be a high remark.
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Well, you know that
we're all individuals
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and I'm sure I
could be critic on it
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but these are the
once with the public trust
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and it troubles me that clearly
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a public understanding
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of the
constitution is not that high.
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And its interesting point
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I have never heard it
before about the amendments
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and I think you're right.
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That these are more even though
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they grant their rights
by granting and this was,
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Madison's problem he felt that
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there were so self-evident
but the state them limited them.
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Right.
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But in a way they're describing
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they're circumscribing
some of the rights.
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But I don't think most people
are aware of the constitution
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and I think it's
a unique document
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but it's also a spirit
of exemplifies the time.
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It has in it
superseded by an amendment.
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Has slavery proportional
voting of individuals.
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It, it has some
really arcane stuff
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and you should
remember better than me
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but limit on
damages in a court case
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and it gets a
five-ten dollars or something.
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So people are
missing a lot of the point
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and I think we're
trying to bring it out.
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Yes, this is a document
but what does it stand for?
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What was the intention?
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What was the
mindset that went into it?
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Yeah.
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And we're losing the mindset
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and that's what makes me afraid
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for religious
liberty in particular.
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It's fine to pass out
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what the first amendment means.
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But if you have to
pass it out too much
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that in itself is a problem.
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Because I think back
when this was first formulated
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people had a more visceral sense
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of more cherished
concept of religious liberty.
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Yeah, because they live--
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And it's true.
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And the case is
under the deprivation.
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Absolutely.
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Of liberty so they understood it
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like our early Baptist
fore barriers existentially
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because their
experience is not just in theory
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or ill-defined fear
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or it is out
there at some place.
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No, it was really--
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It was really and so
you can understand that but,
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that's adding with all
the works in shortcomings
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that one can put
on the constitution.
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It has to lie for 225 years
and then done a pretty good job
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and there's been a lot
of amendments of course
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but not that many.
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I mean, if you're freedom
for more than two centuries
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to have two dozen
amendments that's not, not many.
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And two of them, one
have to bring in something
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and one was to
undo the amendment.
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Take it out, right.
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But a couple of times I
have heard Antonin Scalia
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get on his hobby horse
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and he hasn't several of
them well he has several of them
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but while riding
the different ponies
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he makes a good point.
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That if you really
object to something
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don't try to twist the
law bring it in an amendment.
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We tend to think of
constitution as inflexible
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for all of time
but there is process
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where it can be adjusted
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but it should never be adjusted
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departing from
the basic principles.
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Yeah.
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And I know my own church
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when I was growing
up we had a great fear
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that a constitutional amendment
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might undo the religious liberty
protections and it could.
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But I think the greater danger
is the shifting public view
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while the constitution
remains nicely on display.
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We just go in other way.
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All right.
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That's really
what I see in society.
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Yeah, I think the principles
needed to be preserved
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and of course
if you want to make
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drastic changes
in the constitution,
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the constitutional
amendment process is available
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but you and I know
that's a very complicated.
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Yeah, so in three
fourths of the states to get it,
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to get it ratified.
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But that's right I do think
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that there is some
flexibility in the constitution
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and in the bill of rights.
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They're not a set of
wooden rotary bylaws.
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You know, there are
statement of principles
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that they're need to be shaped
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and defined within some limits
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but still modified as we go
through different time periods
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and different circumstances
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and I think there is
some flexibility there.
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And it's not
just that we change.
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The dynamic of the world
around is little bit different.
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So that needs to be better.
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We don't have much
time left in this program
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but we have been
talking about the Supreme Court
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on this Athens case.
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I'm afraid that
it might intersect
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perhaps not favorably
with one of the other decisions
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these Citizens
United case that held
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that cooperations
they're alike individuals.
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Do you think that
has any ramifications?
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No, I don't much like
the Citizens United case
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for practical reasons
of the electoral process
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that it deals with.
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Well, yes its feud the--
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But it said, you know,
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that cooperation
said freedom of speech
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and that's a
pretty remarkable outcome.
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I don't think it is going to be
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too much
involved in Greece case.
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Well, I hope no. No, yeah.
00:09:09.79\00:09:11.14
But I don't know we
have even this relationship
00:09:11.17\00:09:12.86
but I can't resist
quoting from animal right.
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Remember all animals are equal
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but some animals won't.
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It may be a little
bit involved in the,
00:09:17.47\00:09:20.14
the Affordable Care
Act case with, with.
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It's true.
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Contraception issue that
may be another program too.
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I think we should discuss this.
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Yeah, so but, you know,
00:09:27.96\00:09:30.39
the Supreme
Court is an important
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head of the third
branch of government.
00:09:36.52\00:09:38.10
Right and let's would say,
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you know, there is
a lot of talk about
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legislating from the bench.
00:09:40.68\00:09:41.82
Well, I mean that's a--
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that's pejorative
sort of a take on it
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but it's a
legitimate branch to come.
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Yeah, but it is
a legitimate branch
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and as long as their
old functioning fully they,
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they can work to
protect freedoms or,
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or one can counteract
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the problematic
tendency of the other.
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Yeah, yeah absolutely so.
00:09:59.62\00:10:01.25
But this Athens case is
definitely interesting isn't it.
00:10:01.28\00:10:05.45
In a very interesting fact,
00:10:05.48\00:10:09.41
factoid if you about the
United States Supreme Court
00:10:09.44\00:10:12.05
today is for the
first time in 225 years
00:10:12.08\00:10:16.91
there are no protestants
on the Supreme Court.
00:10:16.94\00:10:19.98
Yeah, six Catholics
and three Jewish justices,
00:10:20.01\00:10:23.62
that's a remarkable event.
00:10:23.65\00:10:26.87
Public prayer
definitely has its place
00:10:26.90\00:10:30.04
as anybody that has
read the Old Testament record
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or Solomon's
Grand in moving prayer
00:10:32.69\00:10:35.29
at the dedication of the temple.
00:10:35.32\00:10:37.60
When he prayed
to the Lord and said
00:10:37.63\00:10:38.89
if thy people who
have sinned come to thee
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and repent then open heaven,
open the windows of heaven,
00:10:42.67\00:10:46.35
the rain and all
of these bounties.
00:10:46.38\00:10:48.72
Its inspiring but I must say
00:10:48.75\00:10:51.43
when we're dealing
with a modern civic
00:10:51.46\00:10:54.36
or civil state
00:10:54.39\00:10:56.28
when a politician or indeed
00:10:56.31\00:10:57.96
even a
religious leader stands up
00:10:57.99\00:10:59.70
and intends the
sort of public prayer
00:10:59.73\00:11:02.40
that is demanded
these days a prayer
00:11:02.43\00:11:05.65
that the Supreme Court
would call ceremonial deism
00:11:05.68\00:11:09.64
just empty phrases
about a generic God,
00:11:09.67\00:11:12.51
nothing much has
gained for spiritual statement
00:11:12.54\00:11:15.98
and everything is risked
00:11:16.01\00:11:17.80
for a compromise between
the rights and prerogatives
00:11:17.83\00:11:20.90
of church and state.
00:11:20.93\00:11:23.75
These cases are
before the Supreme Court now.
00:11:23.78\00:11:26.70
Again present a Gordian knot
00:11:26.73\00:11:29.30
but if we look at
the principle of prayer
00:11:29.33\00:11:32.83
may be not so much after all,
00:11:32.86\00:11:35.15
empty prayers God
doesn't listen to,
00:11:35.18\00:11:37.59
sincere heartfelt
prayers are sweetness to Him.
00:11:37.62\00:11:42.52
For Liberty
Insider I'm Lincoln Steed.
00:11:42.55\00:11:46.03