Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), J. Brent Walker
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000242A
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00:22 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:24 This a program bringing you discussions news, views 00:27 and up-to-date information on religious liberty issues 00:30 in the United States and indeed around the world. 00:33 My name is Lincoln Steed editor of Liberty Magazine. 00:36 And my guest on this program is Brent Walker 00:39 executive director of the Baptist Joint Committee 00:41 for Religious Freedom. 00:43 Thank you, Lincoln. It's good to be here. 00:44 Welcome to the program and it's a privilege 00:47 to have you here even though 00:48 we had many contacts over the years, 00:50 you've written a number of articles 00:51 for Liberty Magazine. 00:54 There's a lot going on in the United States 00:56 and indeed around the world and may be in another program 00:59 we could talk about some global issues. 01:01 This is little insertion I have to got to add it. 01:03 You know, as we do this program 01:05 we're talking about a legal 01:08 and you know not life or death issues 01:10 for most people but, you know, 01:13 in the Middle East Christians are being killed in huge numbers 01:17 and its being characterized as the final expulsion 01:19 of Christians from the Middle East. 01:20 So, I like to sort of balance that. 01:24 But in this country there is some serious issues at play 01:27 and the Supreme Court right now 01:30 have been looking at a case 01:31 that's the township of Greece, isn't it. 01:35 Greece, New York it is up for a challenge. 01:37 Near Rochester. 01:39 Yeah, I thought of it was near Rochester 01:40 I hadn't really looked at the map 01:42 but there's a little irony to make Greece 01:44 because that Greece is the origin of democracy. 01:47 You're, right. 01:48 Ancient Greece and we think 01:51 there's an easy model there 01:52 but democracy today is not what Greece had 01:54 but we loosely connect to that. 01:57 But under the principles of democracy 01:59 now the Supreme Court is looking at whether it's appropriate 02:03 to have prayers opening the township meetings. 02:08 What do you think about this? 02:09 Yeah, well, let me step back just for a couple of seconds. 02:14 The first part of the first amendment 02:16 the religion clause is protect religious liberty, 02:19 Congress shall make no law 02:20 respecting an establishment of religion 02:23 or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. 02:26 What we are talking about in the Greece case 02:28 is the first part its well in a sense both 02:31 but most prominently there are no establishment. 02:34 If it's done under the auspicious 02:36 of the government. 02:37 In the auspicious of the government. 02:39 And no establishment means lot of things 02:41 that government can't give religion 02:44 an advantage by cutting at a check. 02:47 It can't give religion advantage by promoting it 02:50 and what it says in its words and symbols. 02:53 We want government to be neutral towards religion 02:55 not trying to help it. 02:57 No establishment, not trying to hurt it, 02:59 free exercise they will be neutral towards religion. 03:02 So, in this case we have the government 03:07 a local government in Greece, New York, trying to organize 03:13 and orchestrate an active religious version. 03:16 That's exactly what it is when after the meetings starts 03:20 you call in a clergy person to lead in prayer. 03:25 So you know-- 03:27 Since my possession is for the senate. 03:28 Well, now okay, well, that's good 03:30 because there is a president out there 03:33 called the Marsh case 30-years 03:36 where the Supreme Court upheld legislator prayer 03:39 in the Nebraska legislature and by implication in congress. 03:45 But in that case the, the "chaplains" 03:48 who gave, who gave the prayers were there 03:51 to serve the spiritual needs of the members of the body. 03:55 And the court was very careful to say 03:57 that those prayers were non-proselytizing, 04:01 they were not disparaging above the religions. 04:04 They were sort of nonsectarian 04:07 and I think the words were something 04:10 they stood in the tradition of American civil religion 04:15 to solemnize the occasion and to pray over 04:19 the activities of those legislative bodies. 04:23 At the local level it's a lot of different. 04:25 In congress you have some observer's 04:27 people up in the gallery. 04:28 I don't know if you have been. 04:29 And you probably have and I have been too. 04:31 But here you just kind of I mean observer 04:32 you're watching and the prayers are delivered 04:35 and congress goes into session. 04:38 Prayers are delivered there before 04:40 they actually go into the business. 04:42 They go in and you know 04:44 Barry Black is Seventh-day Adventist. 04:46 Well, you know are not supposed to say-- 04:47 A very nice job. 04:48 That on the other side in the house 04:51 there's a Roman catholic. 04:52 Yes, yeah so and so the Marsh case said 04:56 well you know, you know all those circumstances as okay 04:59 but in the local environment people 05:02 they are not as observers. 05:05 They are there to participate in local government 05:08 to get a business license, to get earning variants, 05:11 to argue against the Wal-Mart coming in down the street, 05:15 to get in a war that they might have receive 05:17 so for the citizenship. 05:19 They're very much a participant in the process 05:22 not just an observer 05:23 and if you go back and look at some of the video 05:27 that is in the record in this case 05:29 you got clergy coming in 05:31 and basically creating a congregation out of, 05:34 out of that total group. 05:36 A much more coercive, much more sectarian, 05:41 much more directed not to the numbers of the, 05:45 of the legislative body but to, 05:47 but to the congregation is been, been then-- 05:50 I think what's you're describing is a sort of a line 05:53 in the sand that's been drawn. 05:58 James Madison was not keen on this phenomenon at any level 06:04 but its long since been established in the senate, 06:07 in the congress 06:08 and I don't think its anything to be gained 06:10 by overturning that. 06:12 But given that that exists 06:13 we have to decide what is the subtle difference 06:16 and it gets to be a point 06:18 and at this local government it's clearly to point where, 06:20 where it's functioning differently and it's anything 06:23 but separation of church and state. 06:24 And as I remember this case has gone to the Supreme Court 06:27 because some people objected not so much to the religion 06:30 but there was too much a religion in the prayers 06:33 that they didn't agree with but they were getting 06:35 equal time, right or enough time. 06:37 It was a majority Christian. Yeah. 06:39 Explicitly so others were allowed to come in 06:42 and I don't think there was any grand conspiracy 06:43 there to keep the wicked out. 06:45 No but they would just feeling 06:46 that it was too much of the one thing on them. 06:48 Sure. 06:49 Where it may be if had been their form of religion 06:52 that wouldn't have been so bothered 06:54 which in itself is a, is a dangerous sign in my view. 06:57 Right, yeah, yeah, 06:58 I mean the principles should apply irrespective 07:01 of the religion of the objector 07:05 And it's just as a mental exercise. 07:06 I think it would be highly unlikely 07:08 and probably troubling to much of society 07:12 if the senate or the, or the house chaplains 07:18 where to be say Wiccan or Muslim. 07:23 I don't think of whatever happened 07:24 because in reality there is sort to standings 07:26 for our cultural concept 07:29 of what we generally stand for even if your know 07:32 one of these religions. Yeah. 07:34 And so I think it's already, you know, but if we. 07:38 Right, I understand and in the practicalities 07:41 are terribly unrest that to have government, 07:45 government officials negotiating the religious pluralism 07:50 that we have in this country. 07:52 When it comes-- 07:53 They shouldn't have to deal with it. 07:54 Yeah, and when well, they have to deal it sometimes 07:56 but in the context of orchestrating 08:00 a quintessential act of religious worship, prayer, 08:03 how do you do that 08:04 with all of that religious pluralism 08:06 swirl, swirling around? 08:07 You don't want government writing the prayer. 08:10 you don't want government picking and choosing 08:12 and leaving the disfavored religion out. 08:15 But you don't want government letting Christians come in 08:19 and proselytize in their praying. 08:21 So how do you, how do you get around that? 08:22 Well, heard-- 08:23 I read some of the discussion on the Supreme Court 08:26 and that's where they're debating. 08:28 Well, what's objectionable? 08:30 What might be acceptable? 08:32 How generic does it have to be? 08:34 Those are, somebody has to be an oversight 08:37 in essence someone has to be the sensor 08:39 and likely it will be someone with government authority 08:43 and even if it's on a benign level 08:45 that structurally it troubles me. 08:47 The best out of it. 08:50 Lincoln, in trying to figure out 08:52 these church state conundrums 08:54 I like to go for the simple sometimes. 08:56 Yes. 08:58 And it seems to me that the simple solution here 09:01 and one that should be satisfying 09:03 to everybody concerned 09:04 is to having a moment of silence. 09:06 You know, what is wrong with a moment of silence. 09:09 Then people can pray. 09:10 Yeah you can pray as you see fit or not pray. 09:14 You don't have to pray. 09:15 You're not violating anybody's conscience. 09:16 Yeah. 09:17 If you want to have a simple prayer or prayer, 09:24 do it ahead of time. 09:25 I mean, you can have caucuses meeting down. 09:27 You know, it can be even in the courthouse. 09:29 Just down the hall and meet for prayer 09:32 and then when you come together have a longing silence 09:36 to solemnize the occasion and to me 09:37 that is such a commonsensical 09:41 easy to pull off mutually satisfactory. 09:46 And it has an air of sanctity about it. 09:47 Well, yeah, yeah. So you've given that. 09:49 But it gets government out of the business 09:52 of picking and choosing 09:53 and then writing and second guessing 09:55 and trying to negotiate and differences well they. 09:58 What I read it didn't come up. 09:59 No, no well, I think it was mentioned once in oral argument 10:03 but, you know, that I mean to me 10:07 that's just a commonsense alternative. 10:09 I mean, the court has to address 10:10 what actually happened there. 10:11 Whether it's constitutional or not but it sure would be nice 10:14 if they threw that into say well, 10:15 by the way here is an easy way to do it. 10:17 Yeah. Well let's hope so. 10:19 And I don't think that the court particularly 10:22 is coming with an agenda on this 10:23 they may have it but I don't pick it up. 10:25 I don't think so. 10:26 I think they've been handed in other one in these curlicues. 10:29 You know the Ten Commandment 10:30 postings and all the rest and the prayers 10:32 and the schools and these are perennial topics 10:35 that in the time I'd been dealing with liberty 10:37 just come over and over again 10:39 and they're like Gordian knots, 10:40 you know, the each time they slice a few of the, 10:44 of the fibers but no one really is cut to the quick. 10:47 And I think that's good as any. 10:49 That would solve just the silence rather than 10:52 that what I heard or read in the discussion the other day 10:56 they got all hung up on creating a prayer 10:59 that is generic enough 11:01 and broad based enough to satisfy most people. 11:04 So but it won't be particular enough 11:05 to advance any particular view 11:08 but it will still be religious enough 11:10 to exclude some religious viewpoints 11:12 or nonreligious viewpoints and that really troubles me 11:15 that ahead of time when you make a decision 11:18 like they're about to do they might do it knowing 11:21 that there will some offence taken by someone. 11:24 And that I know as a lawyer 11:28 because I have talked to some of the lawyers 11:30 on these things there is, 11:33 there is an understanding that, 11:35 you know, there is a bit of give and take in that 11:36 some people may, 11:38 you know, get the short end of stick inadvertently. 11:41 I understand that at sometimes government prerogatives 11:44 from a government's point of view 11:47 will usurp a religious accommodation. 11:49 There is just a practical consideration 11:51 but to go into it ahead of time 11:53 as they seem to have decided in discussion 11:56 knowing that somebody 11:58 is really not going to be accommodated correctly 12:00 and may even be excluded or take offence 12:04 I don't like that. 12:05 I think that's against the founding principles 12:09 of the American republic the dignity of the individual 12:13 or the rights of the individuals. 12:14 Well, there is no guarantee in our democracy 12:16 that people aren't gonna offended 12:18 I mean offended over time. 12:19 Well, you know, there are the some people 12:20 are easily offended. 12:21 And people are gonna be left out and it life is not always fair. 12:25 But people do have the right to insist upon their government. 12:29 Well, that's what I mean. 12:30 Yeah, not take sides in religion. 12:31 The government, when they had up that. 12:33 Or they're more against them, either way. 12:36 Well, and let me tell you 12:37 why what the flag that popped up in my mind 12:41 I have heard a lot of talk recently 12:43 in a secular environment 12:45 and its coming from some like most religious groups 12:48 operating it the idea 12:50 that something is for the common good 12:54 and it's a good concept 12:56 but if its run the ground 12:57 it could enable some horrible things. 12:59 The common good is in the aggregate 13:01 this is good for our country, 13:02 good for religion and so on. 13:04 And we accept well, in its worse case 13:07 it's a bit like it wasn't the one of high priest 13:10 said at the time of Jesus 13:11 better that one man should die than the nation should perish 13:13 for the common good. 13:17 It might come to a time that something like that 13:20 practically develops 13:21 but you don't make that decision ahead of time. 13:24 But yes, we're in a worse case it might be 13:28 where a Christian nation and for our the integrity 13:31 and the cohesiveness of our country 13:34 we will sort of protect this group 13:36 and on the margins 13:38 perhaps even in minor ways punish those who are not. 13:42 I might not be personalized troubled 13:44 as a Christian when I see that, 13:46 you know, experientially 13:48 but the principle that can do that 13:49 could in another circumstance do it to me. 13:53 So we need to be very jealous 13:54 at the edges of religious liberty I think. 13:56 Yeah, I agree 100% that idea of the common good. 14:02 Have you heard it? Yeah, sure. 14:04 It's popping up too much to be about virtue. 14:06 Suffused, suffused with this majoritarian idea 14:10 that's what's best for the majority 14:11 is what have gonna. 14:13 And the US was not the majoritarian country 14:15 at both. 14:16 We need to take a break we'll be right back 14:17 to continue this discussion with a lot of heavy implications 14:21 on religious liberty stay with us. |
Revised 2014-12-17