Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This a program bringing
you discussions news, views
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and up-to-date information
on religious liberty issues
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in the United States
and indeed around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed
editor of Liberty Magazine.
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And my guest on this
program is Brent Walker
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executive director of
the Baptist Joint Committee
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for Religious Freedom.
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Thank you, Lincoln.
It's good to be here.
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Welcome to the
program and it's a privilege
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to have you here even though
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we had many
contacts over the years,
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you've written a
number of articles
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for Liberty Magazine.
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There's a lot going
on in the United States
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and indeed around the world
and may be in another program
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we could talk
about some global issues.
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This is little insertion
I have to got to add it.
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You know, as we do this program
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we're talking about a legal
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and you know not
life or death issues
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for most people but, you know,
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in the Middle East Christians
are being killed in huge numbers
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and its being characterized
as the final expulsion
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of Christians
from the Middle East.
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So, I like to
sort of balance that.
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But in this country there
is some serious issues at play
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and the Supreme Court right now
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have been looking at a case
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that's the township
of Greece, isn't it.
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Greece, New York it
is up for a challenge.
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Near Rochester.
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Yeah, I thought of
it was near Rochester
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I hadn't really
looked at the map
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but there's a
little irony to make Greece
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because that Greece is
the origin of democracy.
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You're, right.
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Ancient Greece and we think
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there's an easy model there
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but democracy today
is not what Greece had
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but we loosely connect to that.
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But under the
principles of democracy
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now the Supreme Court is looking
at whether it's appropriate
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to have prayers
opening the township meetings.
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What do you think about this?
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Yeah, well, let me step back
just for a couple of seconds.
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The first part of
the first amendment
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the religion clause is
protect religious liberty,
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Congress shall make no law
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respecting an
establishment of religion
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or prohibiting the
free exercise thereof.
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What we are talking
about in the Greece case
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is the first part
its well in a sense both
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but most prominently
there are no establishment.
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If it's done
under the auspicious
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of the government.
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In the auspicious
of the government.
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And no establishment
means lot of things
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that government
can't give religion
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an advantage by
cutting at a check.
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It can't give religion
advantage by promoting it
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and what it says in
its words and symbols.
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We want government to
be neutral towards religion
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not trying to help it.
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No establishment,
not trying to hurt it,
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free exercise they will
be neutral towards religion.
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So, in this case
we have the government
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a local government in Greece,
New York, trying to organize
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and orchestrate an
active religious version.
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That's exactly what it is
when after the meetings starts
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you call in a clergy
person to lead in prayer.
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So you know--
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Since my
possession is for the senate.
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Well, now okay,
well, that's good
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because there is a
president out there
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called the Marsh case 30-years
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where the Supreme Court
upheld legislator prayer
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in the Nebraska legislature
and by implication in congress.
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But in that case
the, the "chaplains"
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who gave, who gave
the prayers were there
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to serve the spiritual needs
of the members of the body.
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And the court was
very careful to say
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that those prayers
were non-proselytizing,
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they were not
disparaging above the religions.
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They were sort of nonsectarian
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and I think the
words were something
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they stood in the tradition
of American civil religion
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to solemnize the
occasion and to pray over
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the activities of
those legislative bodies.
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At the local level
it's a lot of different.
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In congress you
have some observer's
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people up in the gallery.
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I don't know if you have been.
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And you probably
have and I have been too.
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But here you just
kind of I mean observer
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you're watching and
the prayers are delivered
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and congress goes into session.
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Prayers are
delivered there before
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they actually go
into the business.
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They go in and you know
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Barry Black is
Seventh-day Adventist.
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Well, you know are
not supposed to say--
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A very nice job.
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That on the
other side in the house
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there's a Roman catholic.
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Yes, yeah so and
so the Marsh case said
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well you know, you know
all those circumstances as okay
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but in the local
environment people
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they are not as observers.
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They are there to
participate in local government
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to get a business license,
to get earning variants,
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to argue against the Wal-Mart
coming in down the street,
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to get in a war that
they might have receive
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so for the citizenship.
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They're very much a
participant in the process
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not just an observer
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and if you go back and
look at some of the video
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that is in the
record in this case
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you got clergy coming in
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and basically
creating a congregation out of,
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out of that total group.
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A much more
coercive, much more sectarian,
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much more directed
not to the numbers of the,
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of the legislative body but to,
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but to the congregation
is been, been then--
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I think what's you're
describing is a sort of a line
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in the sand that's been drawn.
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James Madison was not keen
on this phenomenon at any level
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but its long since been
established in the senate,
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in the congress
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and I don't think
its anything to be gained
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by overturning that.
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But given that that exists
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we have to decide what
is the subtle difference
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and it gets to be a point
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and at this local government
it's clearly to point where,
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where it's functioning
differently and it's anything
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but separation
of church and state.
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And as I remember this case
has gone to the Supreme Court
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because some people objected
not so much to the religion
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but there was too much
a religion in the prayers
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that they didn't agree
with but they were getting
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equal time,
right or enough time.
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It was a
majority Christian. Yeah.
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Explicitly so others
were allowed to come in
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and I don't think there
was any grand conspiracy
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there to keep the wicked out.
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No but they would just feeling
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that it was too much
of the one thing on them.
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Sure.
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Where it may be if had
been their form of religion
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that wouldn't
have been so bothered
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which in itself is a, is
a dangerous sign in my view.
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Right, yeah, yeah,
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I mean the principles
should apply irrespective
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of the religion of the objector
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And it's just as
a mental exercise.
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I think it would
be highly unlikely
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and probably
troubling to much of society
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if the senate or the,
or the house chaplains
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where to be say
Wiccan or Muslim.
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I don't think of
whatever happened
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because in reality
there is sort to standings
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for our cultural concept
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of what we generally
stand for even if your know
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one of these religions. Yeah.
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And so I think it's
already, you know, but if we.
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Right, I understand
and in the practicalities
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are terribly unrest
that to have government,
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government officials negotiating
the religious pluralism
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that we have in this country.
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When it comes--
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They shouldn't
have to deal with it.
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Yeah, and when well,
they have to deal it sometimes
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but in the
context of orchestrating
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a quintessential act of
religious worship, prayer,
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how do you do that
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with all of that
religious pluralism
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swirl, swirling around?
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You don't want
government writing the prayer.
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you don't want
government picking and choosing
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and leaving the
disfavored religion out.
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But you don't want government
letting Christians come in
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and proselytize
in their praying.
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So how do you, how
do you get around that?
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Well, heard--
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I read some of the
discussion on the Supreme Court
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and that's where
they're debating.
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Well, what's objectionable?
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What might be acceptable?
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How generic does it have to be?
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Those are, somebody
has to be an oversight
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in essence someone
has to be the sensor
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and likely it will be someone
with government authority
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and even if it's
on a benign level
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that
structurally it troubles me.
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The best out of it.
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Lincoln, in trying to figure out
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these church state conundrums
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I like to go for
the simple sometimes.
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Yes.
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And it seems to me that
the simple solution here
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and one that
should be satisfying
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to everybody concerned
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is to having a
moment of silence.
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You know, what is wrong
with a moment of silence.
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Then people can pray.
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Yeah you can pray as
you see fit or not pray.
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You don't have to pray.
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You're not violating
anybody's conscience.
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Yeah.
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If you want to have a
simple prayer or prayer,
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do it ahead of time.
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I mean, you can have
caucuses meeting down.
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You know, it can be
even in the courthouse.
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Just down the hall
and meet for prayer
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and then when you come
together have a longing silence
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to solemnize the
occasion and to me
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that is such a commonsensical
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easy to pull off
mutually satisfactory.
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And it has an air
of sanctity about it.
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Well, yeah, yeah.
So you've given that.
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But it gets
government out of the business
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of picking and choosing
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and then writing
and second guessing
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and trying to negotiate
and differences well they.
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What I read it didn't come up.
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No, no well, I think it was
mentioned once in oral argument
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but, you know, that I mean to me
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that's just a
commonsense alternative.
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I mean, the court has to address
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what actually happened there.
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Whether it's constitutional
or not but it sure would be nice
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if they threw
that into say well,
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by the way here is
an easy way to do it.
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Yeah. Well let's hope so.
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And I don't think
that the court particularly
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is coming with an agenda on this
00:10:22.48\00:10:23.96
they may have it
but I don't pick it up.
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I don't think so.
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I think they've been handed
in other one in these curlicues.
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You know the Ten Commandment
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postings and all
the rest and the prayers
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and the schools and
these are perennial topics
00:10:32.42\00:10:35.03
that in the time I'd
been dealing with liberty
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just come over and over again
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and they're like Gordian knots,
00:10:39.48\00:10:40.94
you know, the each time
they slice a few of the,
00:10:40.97\00:10:44.34
of the fibers but no one
really is cut to the quick.
00:10:44.37\00:10:47.62
And I think that's good as any.
00:10:47.65\00:10:49.21
That would solve just
the silence rather than
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that what I heard or read
in the discussion the other day
00:10:52.67\00:10:56.21
they got all hung
up on creating a prayer
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that is generic enough
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and broad based enough
to satisfy most people.
00:11:01.36\00:11:04.37
So but it won't
be particular enough
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to advance any particular view
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but it will still
be religious enough
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to exclude some
religious viewpoints
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or nonreligious viewpoints
and that really troubles me
00:11:12.93\00:11:15.66
that ahead of time
when you make a decision
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like they're about to
do they might do it knowing
00:11:18.63\00:11:21.63
that there will some
offence taken by someone.
00:11:21.66\00:11:24.80
And that I know as a lawyer
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because I have talked
to some of the lawyers
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on these things there is,
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there is an understanding that,
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you know, there is a
bit of give and take in that
00:11:35.10\00:11:36.42
some people may,
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you know, get the short
end of stick inadvertently.
00:11:38.94\00:11:41.71
I understand that at sometimes
government prerogatives
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from a
government's point of view
00:11:44.99\00:11:47.33
will usurp a
religious accommodation.
00:11:47.36\00:11:49.78
There is just a
practical consideration
00:11:49.81\00:11:51.39
but to go into it ahead of time
00:11:51.42\00:11:53.87
as they seem to have
decided in discussion
00:11:53.90\00:11:56.86
knowing that somebody
00:11:56.89\00:11:58.51
is really not going to
be accommodated correctly
00:11:58.54\00:12:00.56
and may even be
excluded or take offence
00:12:00.59\00:12:04.55
I don't like that.
00:12:04.58\00:12:05.74
I think that's against
the founding principles
00:12:05.77\00:12:09.41
of the American republic
the dignity of the individual
00:12:09.44\00:12:13.52
or the rights
of the individuals.
00:12:13.55\00:12:14.68
Well, there is no
guarantee in our democracy
00:12:14.71\00:12:16.74
that people
aren't gonna offended
00:12:16.77\00:12:18.03
I mean offended over time.
00:12:18.06\00:12:19.09
Well, you know,
there are the some people
00:12:19.12\00:12:20.15
are easily offended.
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And people are gonna be left out
and it life is not always fair.
00:12:21.24\00:12:25.30
But people do have the right
to insist upon their government.
00:12:25.33\00:12:29.60
Well, that's what I mean.
00:12:29.63\00:12:30.66
Yeah, not take
sides in religion.
00:12:30.69\00:12:31.77
The government,
when they had up that.
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Or they're more
against them, either way.
00:12:33.89\00:12:36.71
Well, and let me tell you
00:12:36.74\00:12:37.77
why what the flag
that popped up in my mind
00:12:37.80\00:12:41.69
I have heard a
lot of talk recently
00:12:41.72\00:12:43.76
in a secular environment
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and its coming from some
like most religious groups
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operating it the idea
00:12:48.66\00:12:50.62
that something is
for the common good
00:12:50.65\00:12:54.63
and it's a good concept
00:12:54.66\00:12:56.02
but if its run the ground
00:12:56.05\00:12:57.08
it could enable
some horrible things.
00:12:57.11\00:12:59.52
The common good
is in the aggregate
00:12:59.55\00:13:01.40
this is good for our country,
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good for religion and so on.
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And we accept
well, in its worse case
00:13:04.18\00:13:07.45
it's a bit like it
wasn't the one of high priest
00:13:07.48\00:13:10.01
said at the time of Jesus
00:13:10.04\00:13:11.10
better that one man should die
than the nation should perish
00:13:11.13\00:13:13.73
for the common good.
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It might come to a time
that something like that
00:13:17.15\00:13:20.66
practically develops
00:13:20.69\00:13:21.73
but you don't make
that decision ahead of time.
00:13:21.76\00:13:24.28
But yes, we're in a
worse case it might be
00:13:24.31\00:13:27.98
where a Christian nation
and for our the integrity
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and the
cohesiveness of our country
00:13:31.48\00:13:33.99
we will sort of
protect this group
00:13:34.02\00:13:36.88
and on the margins
00:13:36.91\00:13:38.22
perhaps even in minor
ways punish those who are not.
00:13:38.25\00:13:42.71
I might not be
personalized troubled
00:13:42.74\00:13:44.91
as a Christian when I see that,
00:13:44.94\00:13:46.60
you know, experientially
00:13:46.63\00:13:48.25
but the
principle that can do that
00:13:48.28\00:13:49.83
could in another
circumstance do it to me.
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So we need to be very jealous
00:13:53.13\00:13:54.77
at the edges of
religious liberty I think.
00:13:54.80\00:13:56.82
Yeah, I agree 100% that
idea of the common good.
00:13:56.85\00:14:02.75
Have you heard it? Yeah, sure.
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It's popping up too
much to be about virtue.
00:14:04.95\00:14:06.35
Suffused, suffused
with this majoritarian idea
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that's what's
best for the majority
00:14:10.12\00:14:11.43
is what have gonna.
00:14:11.46\00:14:13.01
And the US was not
the majoritarian country
00:14:13.04\00:14:15.44
at both.
00:14:15.47\00:14:16.50
We need to take a
break we'll be right back
00:14:16.53\00:14:17.95
to continue this discussion
with a lot of heavy implications
00:14:17.98\00:14:21.18
on religious
liberty stay with us.
00:14:21.21\00:14:22.85