Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), J. Brent Walker
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000241B
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00:06 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:07 Before the break I was talking about religious freedom 00:11 and the role that the Baptists played 00:13 in enunciating that in the United States 00:14 with guest Brent Walker from the Baptist Joint Committee. 00:17 Yeah, it's good to be here. 00:19 Yeah, I have really enjoying this 00:20 we had a interaction in the past 00:22 but I have never got to chase down 00:24 some of these topics with you like this. 00:27 Religious freedom in the Untied States 00:29 separation of church and state, you know, 00:31 it's had an interesting history where is it going? 00:34 It is secure today you think in the United States? 00:38 Yeah, let me-- I was gonna follow up 00:39 on what we're talking about a few minutes ago 00:41 that Jefferson used those words the wall of separation. 00:44 His letter to the Danbury Baptist 00:46 but actually Roger Williams 00:48 talked about the walls of separation. 00:50 Because he was a garb of wall. 00:51 Yeah, yeah 150 years earlier talked about the hedge 00:55 or wall of separation between the garden of the church 00:58 and the wilderness of the world. 01:00 And, and there is no evidence that Jefferson 01:05 had read Williams on that score. 01:06 His mindset is very different. 01:08 He was very secular. 01:09 Yeah. 01:10 He was not a religious distinct, I doubt it. 01:13 And it was some reference to England to the wall metaphor 01:15 and may be Locke had something is to this as well 01:18 but in any event the Supreme Court in one of its opinions 01:25 went back and quoted Jefferson's 1802 letter 01:29 to the Danbury Connecticut Baptist 01:31 talking about the wall of separation. 01:33 And so inconstant in our jurisprudence 01:35 and that's why Jefferson seems 01:37 to get more credit for that metaphor. 01:38 This was during the black era, wasn't it? 01:41 Yes, yeah it was black's opinion in the Everson case 01:46 I believe it was where he brought that in and popularize. 01:49 I love for the dimension of denial there though. 01:53 You know, I have often said 01:55 I don't have great challenge with the Supreme Court decisions 01:58 they seem to be following a fairly predictable logic 02:01 but on some areas they are not as vocal as they should be. 02:05 And I had left for them to state again resoundingly 02:07 the commitment the separation of church and state. 02:10 As well as you know they've been fairly good what was it 02:14 Hosanna-Tabor that case recently as far as church organization 02:18 and its integrity with its employees and they would just-- 02:21 The ministerial exception. 02:22 Very sharp line of distinction the state can't meddle. 02:26 Yes, and the Supreme Court voted 02:28 none to nothing on that case. 02:30 I mean the Supreme Court never votes 02:32 none to nothing or nothing. 02:35 And especially not the our cases in the first amendment 02:38 religion clause cases as usually a division five to four of 63. 02:43 But they none-- they were unanimous 02:45 in their understanding that the ministerial exception 02:50 is an important doctrine that allows 02:53 religious bodies to select and fire and fire their clergy 02:57 without government's supervision. 02:59 And so we think that's a good thing. 03:02 So back to my original question 03:05 on the general state of separation 03:08 where are we at United States? 03:11 You know, I'm kind of half full guy 03:13 rather than a half empty guy. 03:14 So I'm optimistic that 03:17 the principle of separation of church 03:21 is going to survive and to continue 03:26 in our political culture in our jurisprudence. 03:30 It has to because-- 03:31 It will be in deep trouble. 03:33 Exactly, religious liberty would not survive 03:35 if we don't at least have some separation 03:39 between the institutions of government 03:42 and religion so that they neither trash to interfere with 03:46 or takeover the other 03:49 or control the essential work in mission of other. 03:52 There has to be some distance there if the institution-- 03:56 and for the benefit of both. 03:58 It's not just the benefit of the churches 04:02 and religion in generally making to protect you. 04:05 It's also for the government and our democracy 04:08 is much healthier when we have that division than if we didn't. 04:11 Let me cover the discussion from another angle. 04:16 American exceptionalism that's a term 04:19 that people here bounding around. 04:26 Richard Land another Baptists not quite in the same 04:32 vein as the Baptist Joint Committee. 04:34 You get two or three Baptists together 04:36 you will have four or five opinions always. 04:39 In evident I remember him 04:40 I'm only mentioning him as a public figure. 04:42 I saw him on C-SPAN once and he said unambiguously 04:48 he said he believed in American exceptionalism. 04:51 And they didn't get him to enlarge on it 04:53 but I know what usually he said by that. 04:55 What do you think about American exceptionalism? 04:57 What does that mean? 04:59 I mean historically what does it mean to you? 05:00 What should have been? 05:02 It's a nebulous concept and you are right, 05:04 people pour into it meaning of their own choosing. 05:09 You know, sometimes it is held to mean that 05:14 God knows Americans more than God knows others. 05:17 Well Churchill said that. Yeah. 05:19 He says God has blessed America 05:22 and He couldn't have blessed more deserving people. 05:23 Well, that's true. 05:24 Yeah. Yeah. 05:25 So God loves us more than-- 05:26 It's an element of totality there but still I-- 05:29 And that God is somehow intimately involved 05:33 in the affairs of United States in a way 05:35 that He is not involved in other so. 05:37 From the theological point of view 05:39 it bothers me a lot for those reasons. 05:43 I think America is special. 05:46 It is my special country. 05:47 And I was born here and didn't have to choice. 05:49 You had your choice, you came. 05:50 Well, I didn't have a choice in coming. 05:52 My parents brought me here 05:54 but I have a choice in staying and I chose to stay. 05:56 And you stayed right, yeah. 05:57 So I think I love my country 06:00 and there is so much there is good about it. 06:02 There are some things that I don't like but at least 06:05 I have the freedom to try to make it, make it better. 06:08 But I do think that we are special 06:11 something of a beacon of light 06:13 for the rest of the world in terms of our commitment 06:16 to not just democracy but the rise of the individual 06:20 and religious liberty in particular 06:22 and I think if we model that appropriately 06:25 we are going to be 06:27 seen as an example for the rest of the world. 06:28 Well, the American experience was a great historical 06:32 adventure for the whole western world. 06:35 It embodied the enlightenment 06:37 as well as the outgrowth of the reformation. 06:40 I do believe in my church Seventh-day Adventist church 06:43 is very strong that God has had hand over 06:47 to play in events here. 06:49 But I think no more not less than Israel God chosen people. 06:55 Yeah. 06:56 We are not blessed automatically just because God chooses 07:00 and so everything that is done by the United States 07:02 it doesn't have the imprimatur of God. 07:03 And that's what I think is a play here. 07:06 American exceptionalism is being said in political 07:10 presidential races recently never apologize for America. 07:15 Now, no president should ever apologize. 07:17 It just flies in the face of human logic 07:19 as well as theology in my view. 07:23 I mean we don't want to be overly apologetic towards 07:26 for our country that's another question 07:28 but it's not automatically right, 07:30 just because it does something. 07:32 We are not automatically moral 07:34 because we decided that we are moral. 07:35 We need to look at the underpinnings of it 07:38 and so the separation of church and state. 07:40 I think it's a wonderful beacon that you're upholding 07:44 strongly as any group in the United States. 07:46 But just because we say we have it 07:48 doesn't mean it really exists. 07:50 And so that's the battle to bring reality inline 07:53 with the claim, isn't it? 07:54 Yes, absolutely. 07:56 And it worries me sometimes American exceptionalism 08:01 can get in the way of objectivity 08:04 on religious freedom. 08:05 And to me may be I'll differ, 08:07 I think it's strongly tied up with manifest destiny. 08:09 Sure. Yeah, absolutely. 08:11 We know-- Same idea. 08:13 You know, way that lead to the Indian wars 08:15 and other things and stealing from Mexico. 08:18 Even if it were true and let this in awfully, 08:20 awfully miserable outcomes. 08:23 Yes. Yeah absolutely so. 08:25 Now yeah, I think America is special 08:27 it's exceptional in some ways but it's not perfect. 08:32 It's not the same as God. 08:34 But it still has the ability and the potential 08:37 to lead the way and I think on religious liberty 08:40 it was Hillary Clinton 08:41 was talking to one of our Liberty dinners. 08:43 You were probably there when she said that-- 08:44 I was, sitting on her table you were nice enough. 08:46 Yeah. Let me-- 08:47 Yeah, but you can 08:49 pretty much tell by the state of religious freedom 08:52 the state of civil liberties in the country 08:55 it's the litmus test. 08:57 And so I think by projecting religious freedom 09:00 around world the United States has a unique role 09:04 to protect freedom generally civil liberties for, 09:08 indeed whole planet. 09:09 Yeah, yeah somewhat related to the notion of exceptionalism 09:13 is the idea that some believe that 09:15 America is a Christian nation. 09:18 Well, we give a whole program. 09:19 Well, we can do that, 09:20 we could save that for that another time. 09:22 But we would hope that 09:24 the connected to its founding principles 09:27 that remains that it continues that characteristic 09:31 but we need to be sensitive that on the fringes 09:33 they may be non-Christians that we need to protect their right. 09:35 Yeah. So to believe. 09:37 We're gonna have religious liberty 09:38 its going to be religious liberty for everyone. 09:41 And it can't be for some and not for others. 09:46 The idea that we're a Christian nation 09:49 in any legal or constitutional sense 09:53 it just absolutely falls. 09:54 There is no reference in the constitution 09:56 about Christianity. 09:58 Religion is mentioned only once and then 10:01 to say there is not gonna be 10:02 a religious test for public office. 10:04 So we don't have a Christian nation 10:06 in any legal or constitutional sense. 10:09 We may be a Christian nation 10:10 sociologically and demographically 10:13 75% of our population claims to be Christian 10:16 but we are not a legally defined Christian nation. 10:22 The modern history of religious freedom 10:24 is also the history of non conformism. 10:28 After the protestant reformation there were many non conformists, 10:33 chief among them were the Baptist 10:37 and when you study the history of religion 10:39 and religious freedom in the United States 10:41 Baptist figure large. 10:43 As we said in our program it was Baptist preachers imprisoned 10:48 for their illegal preaching that got Madison 10:53 hold fight up about the rights of religious expression. 10:57 It was Baptist concerned about possible persecution. 11:02 And writing to Thomas Jefferson, 11:04 who received that wonderful assurance that they would indeed 11:07 be a separation of church and state 11:09 that would guarantee their rights. 11:12 And right up to the present day the Baptist well, 11:16 a wonderful diverse group but united by some basic 11:20 Christian understandings including 11:22 the baptism by immersion. 11:24 Baptists are playing a leading role 11:26 in protecting and enshrining the values of religious freedom 11:31 and separation of church and state 11:34 in the United States of America 11:36 and by extension around the world. 11:39 For Liberty Insider this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2014-12-17