Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
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Before the break I was
talking about religious freedom
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and the role that
the Baptists played
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in enunciating that
in the United States
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with guest Brent Walker from
the Baptist Joint Committee.
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Yeah, it's good to be here.
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Yeah, I have
really enjoying this
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we had a interaction in the past
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but I have never
got to chase down
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some of these
topics with you like this.
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Religious freedom
in the Untied States
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separation of
church and state, you know,
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it's had an interesting
history where is it going?
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It is secure today you
think in the United States?
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Yeah, let me-- I
was gonna follow up
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on what we're talking
about a few minutes ago
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that Jefferson used those
words the wall of separation.
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His letter to
the Danbury Baptist
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but actually Roger Williams
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talked about the
walls of separation.
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Because he was a garb of wall.
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Yeah, yeah 150 years
earlier talked about the hedge
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or wall of separation
between the garden of the church
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and the wilderness of the world.
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And, and there is no
evidence that Jefferson
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had read Williams on that score.
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His mindset is very different.
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He was very secular.
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Yeah.
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He was not a
religious distinct, I doubt it.
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And it was some reference
to England to the wall metaphor
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and may be Locke had
something is to this as well
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but in any event the Supreme
Court in one of its opinions
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went back and quoted
Jefferson's 1802 letter
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to the Danbury
Connecticut Baptist
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talking about the
wall of separation.
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And so inconstant
in our jurisprudence
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and that's why Jefferson seems
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to get more
credit for that metaphor.
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This was during the
black era, wasn't it?
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Yes, yeah it was black's
opinion in the Everson case
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I believe it was where he
brought that in and popularize.
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I love for the dimension
of denial there though.
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You know, I have often said
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I don't have great challenge
with the Supreme Court decisions
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they seem to be following
a fairly predictable logic
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but on some areas they are
not as vocal as they should be.
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And I had left for them
to state again resoundingly
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the commitment the
separation of church and state.
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As well as you know they've
been fairly good what was it
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Hosanna-Tabor that case recently
as far as church organization
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and its integrity with its
employees and they would just--
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The ministerial exception.
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Very sharp line of distinction
the state can't meddle.
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Yes, and the Supreme Court voted
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none to nothing on that case.
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I mean the
Supreme Court never votes
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none to nothing or nothing.
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And especially not the our
cases in the first amendment
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religion clause cases as usually
a division five to four of 63.
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But they none--
they were unanimous
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in their understanding
that the ministerial exception
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is an important
doctrine that allows
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religious bodies to select
and fire and fire their clergy
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without
government's supervision.
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And so we think
that's a good thing.
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So back to my original question
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on the general
state of separation
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where are we at United States?
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You know, I'm
kind of half full guy
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rather than a half empty guy.
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So I'm optimistic that
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the principle of
separation of church
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is going to
survive and to continue
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in our political
culture in our jurisprudence.
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It has to because--
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It will be in deep trouble.
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Exactly, religious
liberty would not survive
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if we don't at
least have some separation
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between the
institutions of government
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and religion so that they
neither trash to interfere with
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or takeover the other
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or control the essential
work in mission of other.
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There has to be some distance
there if the institution--
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and for the benefit of both.
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It's not just the
benefit of the churches
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and religion in
generally making to protect you.
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It's also for the
government and our democracy
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is much healthier when we have
that division than if we didn't.
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Let me cover the
discussion from another angle.
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American
exceptionalism that's a term
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that people
here bounding around.
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Richard Land another
Baptists not quite in the same
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vein as the
Baptist Joint Committee.
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You get two or
three Baptists together
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you will have four
or five opinions always.
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In evident I remember him
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I'm only mentioning
him as a public figure.
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I saw him on C-SPAN once
and he said unambiguously
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he said he believed in
American exceptionalism.
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And they didn't get
him to enlarge on it
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but I know what
usually he said by that.
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What do you think about
American exceptionalism?
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What does that mean?
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I mean historically
what does it mean to you?
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What should have been?
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It's a nebulous
concept and you are right,
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people pour into it
meaning of their own choosing.
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You know, sometimes
it is held to mean that
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God knows Americans
more than God knows others.
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Well Churchill said that. Yeah.
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He says God has blessed America
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and He couldn't have
blessed more deserving people.
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Well, that's true.
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Yeah. Yeah.
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So God loves us more than--
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It's an element of
totality there but still I--
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And that God is
somehow intimately involved
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in the affairs of
United States in a way
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that He is not
involved in other so.
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From the
theological point of view
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it bothers me a
lot for those reasons.
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I think America is special.
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It is my special country.
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And I was born here
and didn't have to choice.
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You had your choice, you came.
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Well, I didn't
have a choice in coming.
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My parents brought me here
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but I have a choice in
staying and I chose to stay.
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And you stayed right, yeah.
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So I think I love my country
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and there is so much
there is good about it.
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There are some things
that I don't like but at least
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I have the freedom to try
to make it, make it better.
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But I do think
that we are special
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something of a beacon of light
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for the rest of the world
in terms of our commitment
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to not just democracy but
the rise of the individual
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and religious
liberty in particular
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and I think if we
model that appropriately
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we are going to be
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seen as an example
for the rest of the world.
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Well, the American experience
was a great historical
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adventure for the
whole western world.
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It embodied the enlightenment
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as well as the
outgrowth of the reformation.
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I do believe in my church
Seventh-day Adventist church
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is very strong that
God has had hand over
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to play in events here.
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But I think no more not less
than Israel God chosen people.
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Yeah.
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We are not blessed automatically
just because God chooses
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and so everything that
is done by the United States
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it doesn't have
the imprimatur of God.
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And that's what I
think is a play here.
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American exceptionalism
is being said in political
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presidential races recently
never apologize for America.
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Now, no president
should ever apologize.
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It just flies in
the face of human logic
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as well as theology in my view.
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I mean we don't want to
be overly apologetic towards
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for our country
that's another question
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but it's not
automatically right,
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just because it does something.
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We are not automatically moral
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because we
decided that we are moral.
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We need to look at
the underpinnings of it
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and so the
separation of church and state.
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I think it's a wonderful
beacon that you're upholding
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strongly as any
group in the United States.
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But just because
we say we have it
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doesn't mean it really exists.
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And so that's the
battle to bring reality inline
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with the claim, isn't it?
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Yes, absolutely.
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And it worries me sometimes
American exceptionalism
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can get in the
way of objectivity
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on religious freedom.
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And to me may be I'll differ,
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I think it's strongly
tied up with manifest destiny.
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Sure. Yeah, absolutely.
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We know-- Same idea.
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You know, way that
lead to the Indian wars
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and other things and
stealing from Mexico.
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Even if it were true
and let this in awfully,
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awfully miserable outcomes.
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Yes. Yeah absolutely so.
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Now yeah, I think
America is special
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it's exceptional in some
ways but it's not perfect.
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It's not the same as God.
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But it still has the
ability and the potential
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to lead the way and I
think on religious liberty
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it was Hillary Clinton
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was talking to one
of our Liberty dinners.
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You were probably
there when she said that--
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I was, sitting on her
table you were nice enough.
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Yeah. Let me--
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Yeah, but you can
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pretty much tell by the
state of religious freedom
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the state of civil
liberties in the country
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it's the litmus test.
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And so I think by
projecting religious freedom
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around world the United
States has a unique role
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to protect freedom
generally civil liberties for,
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indeed whole planet.
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Yeah, yeah somewhat related
to the notion of exceptionalism
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is the idea that
some believe that
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America is a Christian nation.
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Well, we give a whole program.
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Well, we can do that,
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we could save that
for that another time.
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But we would hope that
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the connected to
its founding principles
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that remains that it
continues that characteristic
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but we need to be
sensitive that on the fringes
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they may be non-Christians that
we need to protect their right.
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Yeah. So to believe.
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We're gonna have
religious liberty
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its going to be
religious liberty for everyone.
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And it can't be for
some and not for others.
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The idea that
we're a Christian nation
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in any legal or
constitutional sense
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it just absolutely falls.
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There is no
reference in the constitution
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about Christianity.
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Religion is
mentioned only once and then
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to say there is not gonna be
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a religious test
for public office.
00:10:02.42\00:10:04.20
So we don't have
a Christian nation
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in any legal or
constitutional sense.
00:10:06.49\00:10:09.12
We may be a Christian nation
00:10:09.15\00:10:10.92
sociologically
and demographically
00:10:10.95\00:10:13.28
75% of our population
claims to be Christian
00:10:13.31\00:10:16.76
but we are not a legally
defined Christian nation.
00:10:16.79\00:10:22.51
The modern history
of religious freedom
00:10:22.54\00:10:24.59
is also the
history of non conformism.
00:10:24.62\00:10:28.48
After the protestant reformation
there were many non conformists,
00:10:28.51\00:10:33.72
chief among
them were the Baptist
00:10:33.75\00:10:37.11
and when you study
the history of religion
00:10:37.14\00:10:39.30
and religious
freedom in the United States
00:10:39.33\00:10:41.34
Baptist figure large.
00:10:41.37\00:10:43.90
As we said in our program it
was Baptist preachers imprisoned
00:10:43.93\00:10:48.89
for their illegal
preaching that got Madison
00:10:48.92\00:10:53.76
hold fight up about the
rights of religious expression.
00:10:53.79\00:10:57.29
It was Baptist concerned
about possible persecution.
00:10:57.32\00:11:02.19
And writing to Thomas Jefferson,
00:11:02.22\00:11:04.82
who received that wonderful
assurance that they would indeed
00:11:04.85\00:11:07.50
be a separation
of church and state
00:11:07.53\00:11:09.90
that would
guarantee their rights.
00:11:09.93\00:11:12.53
And right up to the
present day the Baptist well,
00:11:12.56\00:11:16.04
a wonderful diverse
group but united by some basic
00:11:16.07\00:11:20.08
Christian
understandings including
00:11:20.11\00:11:22.08
the baptism by immersion.
00:11:22.11\00:11:24.39
Baptists are
playing a leading role
00:11:24.42\00:11:26.68
in protecting and enshrining
the values of religious freedom
00:11:26.71\00:11:31.34
and separation
of church and state
00:11:31.37\00:11:34.20
in the United States of America
00:11:34.23\00:11:36.20
and by extension
around the world.
00:11:36.23\00:11:39.20
For Liberty Insider
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:11:39.23\00:11:42.88