Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Melissa Reed
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000240A
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00:22 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:24 This is a program brining you news and discussion, 00:27 views, analysis 00:29 and up-to-date information on religious liberty events 00:32 in the United States and often around the world. 00:35 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty Magazine. 00:38 And on the program is Melissa Reid, 00:41 associate editor of Liberty Magazine. 00:43 So this is an internal Liberty discussion on this program. 00:46 Yes. 00:47 And it's not around the world although we want anyone 00:50 watching from anywhere in the world to, to pay attention 00:53 because I think we should have some good insights 00:55 and analysis of what's happening. 00:57 But let's talk about the United States 00:59 and religious liberties. 01:00 Yeah, specifically here in the United States. 01:01 Yeah, this is a country with a long history 01:04 of standing firm for religious liberty isn't it? 01:07 It is and over the last few years 01:09 we've certainly have seen the term "religious freedom" 01:12 and "religious liberty" really reappear 01:14 and, as far as in the national conscience 01:17 which I think we can be excited about. 01:19 We certainly, you know, as individuals that work 01:21 in that field that certainly gratifying 01:24 to see it highlighted in a way 01:25 and then media that we haven't in the past. 01:31 Let me throw in another thought. 01:34 A previous administration unnamed, 01:37 but it was the previous administration. 01:39 I often thought 01:42 used language in a, in a manipulative way. 01:47 In some ways language was used 01:49 sometimes to say the exact opposite. 01:52 And I have wondered sometimes whether 01:54 yes, there's a greater talk about religious liberty 01:56 but it's not always the same meaning 01:59 as we might have historically given to it. 02:01 Oh, absolutely. I think that's true. 02:03 A lot of times I have conversations with individuals 02:06 and if you just talk about religious freedom 02:09 there isn't hardly anyone who will say-- 02:11 No ones against it. 02:12 No ones against it until you start to defining 02:14 what religious freedom means or does it mean religious freedom 02:17 for my beliefs or does it mean religious freedom 02:20 for your beliefs but not my beliefs 02:23 or is it religious freedom for everyone. 02:25 You know, when you get down to the nitty-gritty 02:28 that's within where you see the differences. 02:31 And certainly since 9/11 and you've heard me 02:34 awful there's a lot. 02:36 General civil liberties have turned very much for the worst. 02:39 Not for the average person but structurally. 02:44 And it's impossible to have a change in civil liberties 02:46 and that not impact religious liberty 02:48 in some very culpable ways. 02:50 Right, I have heard Knox Thames 02:52 who works for the U.S. Commission 02:53 on International Religious Freedom 02:55 colleague of ours that we were closely with. 02:57 He has mentioned in a few of his presentations 03:00 how it's always the strong indicator 03:03 the level of religious freedom within a society of 03:07 the general civil liberties within that community. 03:09 Well, isn't there an organization 03:11 it's called the First Freedom 03:13 and religious liberty is indeed 03:15 the first and greatest civil liberty. 03:16 Yeah. 03:17 And I remember Hillary Clinton a few years ago said that 03:20 one of the liberty dinners 03:21 "that you can pretty much tell the state of religious liberty." 03:25 Or the other way around "you can pretty much tell 03:27 the state of civil liberties in the country 03:29 how they treat religious freedom." 03:30 So then if we are seeing a decline in civil liberties 03:33 here in the United States you think we're also seeing 03:35 a decline in religious freedom. 03:37 People don't recognize it 03:38 but I believe it's changed radically 03:40 and exhibit "A" in my view is a radical rethink 03:45 of the first amendment. 03:47 And I'm sure you've been in meetings like me 03:49 where many religionists boldly say 03:52 they don't believe in any separation of church and state. 03:54 Right, right. 03:56 I mean, I don't know how they can do it, 03:57 its fine to say I see it differently with someone else 03:59 but they just felt denied the principles. 04:01 Right. 04:02 I just read an article on the plane right here 04:05 Justice Scalia was speaking 04:07 I think it was at University of Virginia 04:08 and he is been known to say that 04:12 he doesn't believe in the 04:13 "wall of separation of church and state." 04:15 And he reiterated this at his recent talk 04:17 and actually said the Jefferson didn't mean not at all. 04:20 He didn't say what he thought Jefferson did mean 04:22 when he used that exact phrase but-- 04:24 I know it's bizarre. Yeah. 04:26 I mean, you know, I'll credit Scalia with 04:28 considerable intelligence. 04:30 I have heard him speak a couple of times live 04:33 and listened to him many other times 04:35 and I wouldn't sell him short. 04:37 And I can't know what's going on in his mind. 04:39 But believe me it's a fairly interesting 04:42 very simple historical exercise to go back 04:46 and look at what Jefferson and others meant 04:47 when they put that in. 04:49 Right We know what they meant. 04:50 It was the separation. 04:51 The degree of it is discussable. Right. 04:54 Whether they meant as the freedom 04:56 from religion foundation is trying to require 04:59 a total separation of religion from society. 05:01 Yeah. I think not. 05:02 But they meant a total wall 05:05 between religious identity funding and all the rest 05:09 and the church structure and government operation. 05:12 They were not to be meddling in each other. 05:14 No, and I thought it was interesting in this article 05:16 because it was talking, it mentioned you know 05:18 Scalia said well Jefferson was a very religious man. 05:21 He said that? 05:24 Well, what I just agreed with as far as it--. 05:27 Yes, it's not historically it's the state of wall. 05:29 But also I don't see how one has to do with the other. 05:33 You know Seventh-day Adventist where devout Christians 05:36 and we believe very strongly in separation of church and state 05:40 for one reason because it's a, it's a 05:43 I think for our main reasons its because that's the example 05:45 that our creators has given us. 05:47 He has given us freewill to choose between the two 05:50 and the second is our faith is so much holier 05:55 than our earthly government 05:57 and how dare we denigrate our religion. 06:00 That's what-- yes, I think many of the well meaning 06:03 mostly Protestants but some Roman Catholic public figures 06:08 in the religious movement in the US don't sort of understand. 06:10 They're really cheapening their faith my mixing it. 06:14 Oh, the Bible sees with unholy things. 06:16 Yeah, absolutely. 06:17 And you're if you look at any sort of any thing 06:21 that happens in the government its always through compromise. 06:24 Nobody ever gets exactly what they want. 06:26 So you know which version of whose faith 06:28 or you're gonna do are you gonna use 06:30 and then you're gonna get the watered-down version of that. 06:32 None of it sounds good to me. 06:34 I would like to keep it. 06:35 But you're getting close to what does has troubled me 06:38 editing Liberty Magazine. 06:39 We know-- well we don't know everything but, you know, 06:43 we number of us studying these things 06:46 and it's not just on Liberty magazine. 06:48 People who have seen the separation 06:51 chartered for longtime. 06:53 We know that historical facts support it. 06:56 It's not really a hard thing but in arguing 06:59 for the continued separation and here you just stated that 07:03 Scalia said Jefferson was a very religious person. 07:06 We know the facts and as you say it shouldn't matter 07:09 how religious he was. 07:10 It's whether his ideas where logical and legitimate, 07:16 whether they were incorporated into law 07:18 and whether they're good for the country. 07:20 It shouldn't rise or fall or whether he is a good man. 07:22 Many good people have done horrible things. 07:24 Yes. 07:25 Or been wrong, horribly wrong. 07:26 May be that's a better way of putting it. 07:27 Right. 07:29 But its, its very plain Jefferson would not have passed 07:32 muster in most Christian communions nowadays. 07:37 He was an extreme skeptic and the proof of the putting 07:40 if there's none other needed is when he was elected president. 07:44 That was one of the most divisive elections 07:46 in American history. 07:47 And the charge was made that he was an atheist. 07:49 So I don't know where Scalia would get the sanctimony, 07:54 you know, that he could, he could put that robe 07:56 over Jefferson. 07:57 Even though I think Jefferson is 07:59 towering figure in American history. 08:00 Right. 08:01 One of the founding fathers and I think it was Jefferson 08:04 you all have to correct me if I'm wrong. 08:06 Actually cut and paste. 08:08 Jefferson, Jefferson. 08:09 In their Bibles so that it was accurate 08:11 with their own believes. 08:12 So it's he was-- 08:13 Well, he didn't just do it casually it wasn't one cut. 08:15 Yes. 08:16 It was many, many cuts. 08:17 Yes. 08:19 He went through the entire, the entire gospels, 08:22 not the New Testament. 08:23 But entire gospels and excised everything that he thought was 08:28 made up narrative or a, 08:30 or he took out just automatically all the miracles 08:33 and he think divine and he was left with 08:35 the wise sayings of Jesus. 08:38 And that was consistent 08:40 because he believed Jesus was not divine. 08:42 He was not, you know, 08:45 He didn't represent God in any regard. 08:47 He was a good teacher. 08:49 And like Buddha or someone like that he thought that 08:51 it was of some moral value for society to have that. 08:54 And the reason he did that was specifically 08:57 to have a primate to give to the Indians 08:59 to teach them morality. 09:01 Oh, I see, I see. 09:03 Well, I'm laughing. It's not secret. 09:04 Yeah. 09:05 In fact, stimuli is of that or originals of that still around. 09:08 Yeah, that's interesting I'd like to see that. 09:11 I'm amused by the idea but then as I'm thinking about it 09:14 I'm thinking well, we sort to see that 09:16 happen a lot now not literally 09:19 but we see that in the action of the individuals 09:23 because may be a particular teaching in the Bible 09:26 is no longer politically correct. 09:28 And so we as Christians or seeing Christians 09:32 more and more pick and chose 09:34 which beliefs tenets they're going to stand behind. 09:37 Well, let's take a detail from religious liberty 09:39 and speak to Adventist. 09:41 I have heard Adventist preachers preaching good sermons 09:46 but a huge fallacy built in. 09:47 They all say that the moral precepts of Jesus 09:51 and of Christianity are so beneficial 09:54 that even if there was not 09:56 a heaven terminal lose to come another life 09:59 that it would be just a great advantage 10:01 to have that here and now. 10:02 That's Jefferson's thinking 10:04 and the fallacy there is explained instantly by Paul. 10:06 He says "if Christ be not risen we've all been most miserable." 10:11 In other words, we like 10:14 not quite like but I mean it certainly 10:16 similar dynamics to the, to the 10:19 hippies that followed Manson. 10:22 You know, it's a cultic thing. 10:23 Yes, yes, yes. 10:24 You're just following someone because you like what they say. 10:26 So it's wise old sayings of this guru or some. 10:29 Right. 10:30 I mean there might be some little help in life 10:31 but not any solution to life or, or a master template to apply. 10:37 You know, that's not the proof of Christianity. 10:39 Right. 10:40 And it doesn't damn Jefferson as a man or as a legislator. 10:44 But he is severely compromised by the people like Scalia. 10:48 I had to realize using that club 10:50 that tried to put him as theological, 10:52 you know, rush bull. 10:54 Yes, yes. 10:55 It's not the case and then I'm not glad it's not the case. 10:58 The United States was not founded by a group of, 11:01 you know, the supreme council of the Ayatollahs 11:03 like in Iran just let them go. 11:05 Correct. Yeah. 11:06 You know, it's interesting I really feel like 11:09 when I look around I see as far as religion 11:13 its sort of the pulse of religious freedom 11:15 here in the United States. 11:17 I see things popping up in areas 11:20 that I never expected to see in aspects of society 11:24 or in my everyday life that I never expected to see. 11:26 I think we have talked a couple of times 11:28 about Seventh-day Adventist church members 11:30 who do literature evangelism. 11:34 They have problems with some local regulations 11:37 and the inhibitions but to put well, 11:41 I think that's wrong word but the prohibitions 11:44 put against them by local regulations 11:46 which are not constitutional. 11:48 And several years ago the Supreme Court upheld 11:51 and a case brought by the Jehovah's Witness 11:54 that right to go door to door to witness 11:56 or to sell religious material. 11:57 No, they're unconstitutional 11:59 but yet they're huge stumbling block. 12:01 There is a social movement restricting religious activity. 12:06 And this is the irony in my view 12:08 that on hand we see a certain politically active religion 12:12 it's trying to carve out more and more particular 12:15 prerogatives with their version of faith. 12:17 But on another hand there is a growing group of secular 12:22 now may be secular is a wrong word, 12:23 religiously intolerant secularists 12:28 who would just don't want religion in their face. 12:31 They'd like to chase it away somewhere else. 12:32 Right, right, right. 12:33 And I think the end of the day they're the least dangerous 12:36 but they're not to be dismissed. 12:38 This is a very significant development 12:41 within the United States and there is huge tension 12:43 and it's not dissimilar to even in the Islamic world. 12:46 When you get a fight between secularists religionist 12:49 if the societal base includes this great reverence 12:52 long tradition for religion, religion will likely win. 12:56 And it will make it more radical. 12:59 Yeah, yes. 13:00 It becomes more extreme in its claims well it's taught to. 13:02 Yeah, yeah. 13:03 Well, you know Seventh-day Adventist church 13:05 is a protestant faith but it's also a minority 13:08 protestant faith, faith and that we could 13:10 you know worship on the Seventh-day Sabbath. 13:12 And it's interesting because I feel like 13:15 may be even more of a danger to religious freedom 13:20 for all is seeing other faith groups 13:24 being intolerant to minority religions. 13:28 Right and they're very off to know with human nature. 13:31 I mean we, you know, 13:33 I can't easily point to medieval Roman church 13:37 and it's institutionalized in tolerance 13:39 that's tied to its sense of primacy 13:41 and you know the every other church is a legitimate 13:44 unless they're unite with them. 13:46 But that aside, most religious groups that's, 13:49 you know, it's a very important central part of someone's life 13:52 and they got the truth and they look here and they're erroneous. 13:55 So pretty soon you have got your carol here in hand. 13:57 And you're like fighting the 13:59 there is the McCoy's over there. 14:00 You're the Hatfields you got to get rid of the, 14:02 the other irreligious group. 14:03 Yeah, yeah. 14:05 And this might be a good time to take a break. 14:07 So we will back in a few moments 14:09 to continue this discussion of 14:12 PAX Religioso or PAX Americana 14:16 in all things religious and religious liberty. 14:18 Take your pick and we will back. |
Revised 2014-12-17