Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is a program
brining you news and discussion,
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views, analysis
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and up-to-date information
on religious liberty events
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in the United States
and often around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty Magazine.
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And on the
program is Melissa Reid,
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associate editor
of Liberty Magazine.
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So this is an internal Liberty
discussion on this program.
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Yes.
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And it's not around the
world although we want anyone
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watching from anywhere in
the world to, to pay attention
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because I think we
should have some good insights
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and analysis of
what's happening.
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But let's talk
about the United States
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and religious liberties.
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Yeah, specifically
here in the United States.
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Yeah, this is a
country with a long history
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of standing firm for
religious liberty isn't it?
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It is and over
the last few years
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we've certainly have seen
the term "religious freedom"
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and "religious
liberty" really reappear
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and, as far as in
the national conscience
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which I think we
can be excited about.
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We certainly, you know,
as individuals that work
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in that field that
certainly gratifying
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to see it highlighted in a way
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and then media that
we haven't in the past.
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Let me throw in another thought.
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A previous
administration unnamed,
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but it was the
previous administration.
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I often thought
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used language in a,
in a manipulative way.
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In some ways language was used
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sometimes to say
the exact opposite.
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And I have
wondered sometimes whether
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yes, there's a greater
talk about religious liberty
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but it's not
always the same meaning
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as we might have
historically given to it.
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Oh, absolutely. I
think that's true.
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A lot of times I have
conversations with individuals
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and if you just talk
about religious freedom
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there isn't hardly
anyone who will say--
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No ones against it.
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No ones against it
until you start to defining
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what religious freedom means or
does it mean religious freedom
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for my beliefs or does
it mean religious freedom
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for your beliefs
but not my beliefs
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or is it religious
freedom for everyone.
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You know, when you get
down to the nitty-gritty
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that's within where
you see the differences.
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And certainly since
9/11 and you've heard me
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awful there's a lot.
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General civil liberties have
turned very much for the worst.
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Not for the average
person but structurally.
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And it's impossible to
have a change in civil liberties
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and that not
impact religious liberty
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in some very culpable ways.
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Right, I have heard Knox Thames
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who works for
the U.S. Commission
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on International
Religious Freedom
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colleague of ours
that we were closely with.
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He has mentioned in a
few of his presentations
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how it's always
the strong indicator
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the level of religious
freedom within a society of
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the general civil
liberties within that community.
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Well, isn't
there an organization
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it's called the First Freedom
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and religious liberty is indeed
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the first and
greatest civil liberty.
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Yeah.
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And I remember Hillary Clinton
a few years ago said that
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one of the liberty dinners
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"that you can pretty much tell
the state of religious liberty."
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Or the other way around
"you can pretty much tell
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the state of civil
liberties in the country
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how they treat
religious freedom."
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So then if we are seeing
a decline in civil liberties
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here in the United States
you think we're also seeing
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a decline in religious freedom.
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People don't recognize it
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but I believe
it's changed radically
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and exhibit "A" in my
view is a radical rethink
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of the first amendment.
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And I'm sure you've
been in meetings like me
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where many
religionists boldly say
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they don't believe in any
separation of church and state.
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Right, right.
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I mean, I don't
know how they can do it,
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its fine to say I see it
differently with someone else
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but they just felt
denied the principles.
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Right.
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I just read an article
on the plane right here
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Justice Scalia was speaking
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I think it was at
University of Virginia
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and he is been known to say that
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he doesn't believe in the
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"wall of separation
of church and state."
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And he reiterated
this at his recent talk
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and actually said the Jefferson
didn't mean not at all.
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He didn't say what he
thought Jefferson did mean
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when he used that
exact phrase but--
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I know it's bizarre. Yeah.
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I mean, you know,
I'll credit Scalia with
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considerable intelligence.
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I have heard him
speak a couple of times live
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and listened to
him many other times
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and I wouldn't sell him short.
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And I can't know
what's going on in his mind.
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But believe me it's
a fairly interesting
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very simple
historical exercise to go back
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and look at what
Jefferson and others meant
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when they put that in.
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Right We know what they meant.
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It was the separation.
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The degree of it
is discussable. Right.
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Whether they
meant as the freedom
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from religion
foundation is trying to require
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a total separation of
religion from society.
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Yeah. I think not.
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But they meant a total wall
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between religious identity
funding and all the rest
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and the church structure
and government operation.
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They were not to be
meddling in each other.
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No, and I thought it was
interesting in this article
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because it was
talking, it mentioned you know
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Scalia said well Jefferson
was a very religious man.
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He said that?
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Well, what I just
agreed with as far as it--.
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Yes, it's not historically
it's the state of wall.
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But also I don't see how
one has to do with the other.
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You know Seventh-day Adventist
where devout Christians
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and we believe very strongly in
separation of church and state
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for one reason
because it's a, it's a
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I think for our main reasons
its because that's the example
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that our creators has given us.
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He has given us freewill
to choose between the two
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and the second is our
faith is so much holier
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than our earthly government
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and how dare we
denigrate our religion.
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That's what-- yes, I
think many of the well meaning
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mostly Protestants but some
Roman Catholic public figures
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in the religious movement in
the US don't sort of understand.
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They're really cheapening
their faith my mixing it.
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Oh, the Bible sees
with unholy things.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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And you're if you look
at any sort of any thing
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that happens in the government
its always through compromise.
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Nobody ever gets
exactly what they want.
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So you know which
version of whose faith
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or you're gonna
do are you gonna use
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and then you're gonna get the
watered-down version of that.
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None of it sounds good to me.
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I would like to keep it.
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But you're getting close
to what does has troubled me
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editing Liberty Magazine.
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We know-- well we don't
know everything but, you know,
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we number of us
studying these things
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and it's not just
on Liberty magazine.
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People who have
seen the separation
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chartered for longtime.
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We know that
historical facts support it.
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It's not really a
hard thing but in arguing
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for the continued separation
and here you just stated that
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Scalia said Jefferson
was a very religious person.
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We know the facts and as
you say it shouldn't matter
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how religious he was.
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It's whether his ideas
where logical and legitimate,
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whether they were
incorporated into law
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and whether they're
good for the country.
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It shouldn't rise or fall
or whether he is a good man.
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Many good people
have done horrible things.
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Yes.
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Or been wrong, horribly wrong.
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May be that's a
better way of putting it.
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Right.
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But its, its very plain
Jefferson would not have passed
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muster in most
Christian communions nowadays.
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He was an extreme skeptic
and the proof of the putting
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if there's none other needed is
when he was elected president.
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That was one of the
most divisive elections
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in American history.
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And the charge was
made that he was an atheist.
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So I don't know where
Scalia would get the sanctimony,
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you know, that he
could, he could put that robe
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over Jefferson.
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Even though I think Jefferson is
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towering figure
in American history.
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Right.
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One of the founding fathers
and I think it was Jefferson
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you all have to
correct me if I'm wrong.
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Actually cut and paste.
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Jefferson, Jefferson.
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In their Bibles so
that it was accurate
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with their own believes.
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So it's he was--
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Well, he didn't just do it
casually it wasn't one cut.
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Yes.
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It was many, many cuts.
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Yes.
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He went through the
entire, the entire gospels,
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not the New Testament.
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But entire gospels and excised
everything that he thought was
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made up narrative or a,
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or he took out just
automatically all the miracles
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and he think divine
and he was left with
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the wise sayings of Jesus.
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And that was consistent
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because he believed
Jesus was not divine.
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He was not, you know,
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He didn't
represent God in any regard.
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He was a good teacher.
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And like Buddha or someone
like that he thought that
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it was of some moral
value for society to have that.
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And the reason he
did that was specifically
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to have a primate
to give to the Indians
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to teach them morality.
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Oh, I see, I see.
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Well, I'm
laughing. It's not secret.
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Yeah.
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In fact, stimuli is of that or
originals of that still around.
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Yeah, that's interesting
I'd like to see that.
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I'm amused by the idea but
then as I'm thinking about it
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I'm thinking well,
we sort to see that
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happen a lot now not literally
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but we see that in the
action of the individuals
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because may be a
particular teaching in the Bible
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is no longer
politically correct.
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And so we as
Christians or seeing Christians
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more and more pick and chose
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which beliefs tenets
they're going to stand behind.
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Well, let's take a
detail from religious liberty
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and speak to Adventist.
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I have heard Adventist
preachers preaching good sermons
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but a huge fallacy built in.
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They all say that the
moral precepts of Jesus
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and of
Christianity are so beneficial
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that even if there was not
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a heaven terminal
lose to come another life
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that it would be
just a great advantage
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to have that here and now.
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That's Jefferson's thinking
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and the fallacy there is
explained instantly by Paul.
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He says "if Christ be not risen
we've all been most miserable."
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In other words, we like
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not quite like but
I mean it certainly
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similar dynamics to the, to the
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hippies that followed Manson.
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You know, it's a cultic thing.
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Yes, yes, yes.
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You're just following someone
because you like what they say.
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So it's wise old
sayings of this guru or some.
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Right.
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I mean there might be
some little help in life
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but not any solution to life or,
or a master template to apply.
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You know, that's not
the proof of Christianity.
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Right.
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And it doesn't damn Jefferson
as a man or as a legislator.
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But he is severely compromised
by the people like Scalia.
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I had to realize using that club
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that tried to put
him as theological,
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you know, rush bull.
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Yes, yes.
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It's not the case and then
I'm not glad it's not the case.
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The United States was
not founded by a group of,
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you know, the supreme
council of the Ayatollahs
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like in Iran just let them go.
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Correct. Yeah.
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You know, it's
interesting I really feel like
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when I look around I
see as far as religion
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its sort of the
pulse of religious freedom
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here in the United States.
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I see things popping up in areas
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that I never expected to
see in aspects of society
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or in my everyday life
that I never expected to see.
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I think we have
talked a couple of times
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about Seventh-day
Adventist church members
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who do literature evangelism.
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They have problems
with some local regulations
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and the
inhibitions but to put well,
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I think that's wrong
word but the prohibitions
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put against them
by local regulations
00:11:44.16\00:11:46.67
which are not constitutional.
00:11:46.70\00:11:48.35
And several years ago
the Supreme Court upheld
00:11:48.38\00:11:51.54
and a case brought
by the Jehovah's Witness
00:11:51.57\00:11:54.19
that right to go
door to door to witness
00:11:54.22\00:11:56.32
or to sell religious material.
00:11:56.35\00:11:57.67
No, they're unconstitutional
00:11:57.70\00:11:59.34
but yet they're
huge stumbling block.
00:11:59.37\00:12:01.72
There is a social movement
restricting religious activity.
00:12:01.75\00:12:06.34
And this is the irony in my view
00:12:06.37\00:12:08.93
that on hand we see a certain
politically active religion
00:12:08.96\00:12:12.41
it's trying to carve
out more and more particular
00:12:12.44\00:12:15.57
prerogatives with
their version of faith.
00:12:15.60\00:12:17.87
But on another hand there
is a growing group of secular
00:12:17.90\00:12:22.29
now may be
secular is a wrong word,
00:12:22.32\00:12:23.96
religiously
intolerant secularists
00:12:23.99\00:12:28.95
who would just don't
want religion in their face.
00:12:28.98\00:12:31.03
They'd like to chase
it away somewhere else.
00:12:31.06\00:12:32.65
Right, right, right.
00:12:32.68\00:12:33.72
And I think the end of the
day they're the least dangerous
00:12:33.75\00:12:36.59
but they're not to be dismissed.
00:12:36.62\00:12:37.97
This is a very
significant development
00:12:38.00\00:12:41.32
within the United States
and there is huge tension
00:12:41.35\00:12:43.47
and it's not dissimilar
to even in the Islamic world.
00:12:43.50\00:12:46.21
When you get a fight
between secularists religionist
00:12:46.24\00:12:49.20
if the societal base
includes this great reverence
00:12:49.23\00:12:52.93
long tradition for religion,
religion will likely win.
00:12:52.96\00:12:56.49
And it will
make it more radical.
00:12:56.52\00:12:59.07
Yeah, yes.
00:12:59.10\00:13:00.17
It becomes more extreme in
its claims well it's taught to.
00:13:00.20\00:13:02.83
Yeah, yeah.
00:13:02.86\00:13:03.89
Well, you know
Seventh-day Adventist church
00:13:03.92\00:13:05.65
is a protestant faith
but it's also a minority
00:13:05.68\00:13:08.27
protestant faith,
faith and that we could
00:13:08.30\00:13:10.52
you know worship on
the Seventh-day Sabbath.
00:13:10.55\00:13:12.89
And it's
interesting because I feel like
00:13:12.92\00:13:15.34
may be even more of a
danger to religious freedom
00:13:15.37\00:13:20.38
for all is seeing
other faith groups
00:13:20.41\00:13:24.73
being intolerant
to minority religions.
00:13:24.76\00:13:28.01
Right and they're very
off to know with human nature.
00:13:28.04\00:13:31.31
I mean we, you know,
00:13:31.34\00:13:33.88
I can't easily point
to medieval Roman church
00:13:33.91\00:13:37.22
and it's
institutionalized in tolerance
00:13:37.25\00:13:39.34
that's tied to
its sense of primacy
00:13:39.37\00:13:41.93
and you know the every
other church is a legitimate
00:13:41.96\00:13:44.54
unless they're unite with them.
00:13:44.57\00:13:46.07
But that aside, most
religious groups that's,
00:13:46.10\00:13:49.78
you know, it's a very important
central part of someone's life
00:13:49.81\00:13:52.19
and they got the truth and they
look here and they're erroneous.
00:13:52.22\00:13:55.13
So pretty soon you have
got your carol here in hand.
00:13:55.16\00:13:57.73
And you're like fighting the
00:13:57.76\00:13:59.13
there is the McCoy's over there.
00:13:59.16\00:14:00.31
You're the Hatfields
you got to get rid of the,
00:14:00.34\00:14:02.18
the other irreligious group.
00:14:02.21\00:14:03.90
Yeah, yeah.
00:14:03.93\00:14:05.04
And this might be a
good time to take a break.
00:14:05.07\00:14:07.62
So we will back in a few moments
00:14:07.65\00:14:09.49
to continue this discussion of
00:14:09.52\00:14:12.83
PAX Religioso or PAX Americana
00:14:12.86\00:14:16.73
in all things
religious and religious liberty.
00:14:16.76\00:14:18.94
Take your pick and we will back.
00:14:18.97\00:14:20.68