Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Melissa Reed
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000239A
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00:22 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:25 This is a program that bringings you news, 00:27 views, discussion, opinion 00:29 and up-to-date information on religious liberty issues 00:31 in the United States and around the world. 00:34 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty magazine 00:38 and my guest on the program is Melissa Reid, 00:41 associate, works with me on Liberty Magazine, 00:43 associate on Liberty Magazine. 00:47 We could talk about just about anything as we've-- 00:50 you know, I don't know if you've heard me 00:52 talk me about this Melissa, 00:53 but a number of times on this program, 00:55 going right back to the beginning 00:57 when we weren't sure about what topic to have, 00:59 we just grab the day's paper. 01:00 Yes. 01:01 And open it at random-- in fact not even open then, 01:04 look at the front cover or front page 01:06 and almost invariably there would be an issue 01:08 that will relate to religious liberty. 01:10 So there's no shortage. Right. 01:12 But lately and you and I have discussed it 01:15 from a Seventh-day Adventist perspective 01:17 it's troubling from different quadrants of the campus 01:21 we get stories about Seventh-day Adventists 01:23 that have been persecuted 01:25 and more than just harassed imprisoned. 01:27 Right. Right. 01:29 What's one of the cases? 01:30 I know you've follow these fairly closely. 01:33 Right, well-- 01:34 Which one do you want to mention first? 01:35 Sure, the most recent one is the story of a young man, 01:39 29 years old in Pakistan, 01:41 Seventh-day Adventist church member 01:43 and believer, Sajjad Masih who is recently been convicted 01:48 and is serving a life sentence for blasphemy. 01:52 The he's-- and the great irony is that 01:54 he's almost from a legal-- in a legal suspect of lucky. 01:58 I mean, we can put more than luck to it. 01:59 Yes. Yes. 02:01 No, that's exactly true 02:02 because I think a lot of times blasphemy 02:03 actually holds a death sentence, isn't that-- 02:06 That's the standard sentence in Pakistan. 02:07 The standard sentence, right. 02:09 Well, this is a really interesting case 02:12 and its discouraging case obviously for our church member 02:17 and his family and we certainly want to lift them up and prayer 02:21 but it's interesting in the fact 02:23 that the accuser who has recanted, 02:27 the gentleman, evidently there was a situation-- 02:29 And the love triangle. 02:30 A bit of a love triangle, very odd situation. 02:32 Nothing really wrong. Nothing touted off. 02:35 But it was seen in bad light by the man 02:39 who ended up marrying. 02:40 Right. 02:41 He's intended, he's-- the young lady 02:44 that he thought he would marry. 02:45 And so he accused Mr. Masih of blasphemy 02:50 knowing the dire consequences 02:52 that came along with that charge or with that accusation. 02:57 And so despite the fact 03:00 that the now husband has recanted and said, 03:03 in fact this didn't happened. 03:06 Mr. Masih has been convicted 03:07 and is serving his life sentence. 03:10 It's just an incredible situation. 03:12 And it's worth mentioning because it has sort of echoes 03:14 of what we fear in the United States 03:17 with government tapping of all communications. 03:21 The charge was made on telephone conversations 03:24 between Masih and the woman 03:29 who was now married to his rival. 03:32 But from England to Pakistan 03:34 the charge was made that on these phone conversations. 03:36 He said something demeaning of Islam 03:38 and that's what blasphemy is. 03:39 It doesn't have to be something gregarious 03:41 where you know, there's profanity 03:43 applied to the prophet or to Allah. 03:46 It's just something a little slightly disrespectful 03:49 or even in some cases appropriating Islamic language 03:54 when you are not a Muslim that's blasphemy. 03:56 Or just denying that, 03:58 you know, Mohamed is a prophet from God. 03:59 So even to stating your belief which is regards with it. 04:03 So the charge, from an outsider's 04:06 point of view is frivolous anyhow. 04:08 Absolutely. 04:09 But even if you take the Lord 04:10 its full merits this was a false charge 04:14 because there's no real evidence 04:15 he did do what the law prohibits. 04:18 No. 04:19 So evidently you know, our churches got involved 04:22 and this gentleman has an attorney there in Pakistan, 04:28 there's going to be-- I guess there's an opportunity-- 04:30 For an appeal. 04:31 For an appeal in a couple of years, 04:33 is that what I am understanding? 04:34 Well, that the appeal is being lodge now 04:35 but it will take at least two years. 04:37 It will take at least two years. 04:38 And meanwhile there he stays in prison 04:41 which is a horrible fate and an apparent injustice 04:46 but given the volatile situation there it may save his life 04:50 because if he were released pending 04:52 during the appeal it's essentially a 100% sure 04:56 that the religious leaders in his community-- 04:59 we know this because it's happened many times. 05:01 Yes. 05:02 Would fire up the community say, 05:03 he's an apostate, he's being convicted, 05:06 he's blighted the name of Islam and kill him, he's open go. 05:11 It's straight from the Quran, 05:12 you don't have to say local prejudice, 05:14 its just local extremist application 05:17 of applying Quranic statement. 05:19 Well, I've seen pictures from this case of individuals 05:23 outside of either the courthouse or the prison, 05:25 calling for this exact thing, 05:27 calling for the death of this young man. 05:28 Sure. 05:29 It's an incredible story. He should be beheaded. 05:31 That's one of the religious leader said 05:33 that exactly that he should be beheaded 05:36 and his body desecrated 05:38 and so because he dare to profane Islam. 05:40 You're right, we're unfortunately 05:42 hearing of these blasphemy stories 05:45 more and more often from Pakistan. 05:47 We've I think on this show 05:49 talked about the story of Asia Bibi, 05:52 the housewife in a small rural area of Pakistan 05:55 was accused by some fellow women. 05:59 And she was filling water from the well. 06:00 Right. 06:02 And this is the anti-woman at the well story, 06:04 this is a biblical one but it's a wonderful complement. 06:06 Just a young Christian mother that you know, 06:10 and when you were talking about Mr. Masih 06:13 and actually how he might be safer 06:15 in prison right now made me think of Asia Bibi 06:17 because I know that that's the case for her. 06:19 If she would let out of prison right now, 06:21 and I don't think she's ever been convicted, 06:23 I think she's just.. 06:27 I don't know. She was on trial. 06:30 These trials drag on and on 06:32 and it's been pointed out 06:34 probably to be fair to the Pakistani judiciary, 06:38 it's probably part of the tactics of the judges 06:41 who were not by any means all tainted 06:44 with these extremist extremism 06:46 and they trying to apply-- you know, Pakistan and India 06:49 really are on the tale end of the British legal system, 06:53 they still have some remnants of that 06:55 and think a bit that way. 06:56 So I think the judiciary have figured 06:59 that often the way to deal with this is to tick you know, 07:02 let it sort of click, tick out very slowly 07:05 and let tensions go down 07:06 and then if possible just sort of slide it out the back door. 07:10 And all the contacts that we've able to make 07:14 on this the indications 07:16 that the a life sentence rather than a death penalty 07:20 is the judiciary's way to signal to the high court 07:23 that really there's no substance to it. 07:25 So there's a very good chance 07:27 that his sentence would be commuted entirely 07:29 or minimized to-- maybe time served or... 07:33 But he would need to leave the country. 07:35 Incredible. 07:37 And I am trying to remember the full story of Asia Bibi, 07:39 that was some tome ago 07:40 but the family came under severe threat, 07:42 that's what happens. It's not just the one charged. 07:45 Well, the local religious leader, 07:47 I mean, called for that, 07:49 you know, call for and so really her being 07:51 in police custody was actually safer for her family. 07:55 It's incredible situation. 07:56 And then we've seen how, 07:58 seen you know, what happens 08:01 when government leaders in that country in Pakistan 08:04 speak out against these blasphemy laws, 08:09 we've seen them murdered 08:10 in front of their own mother's home 08:13 or by their own bodyguard. 08:14 I mean, it's just incredible situation 08:18 that it has to be horrifying to be a part of. 08:22 What do you think going on in Pakistan? 08:25 I mean, just in your opinion. 08:27 Well, that's a very broad question. 08:28 Well, wh`at's-- well, 08:29 I put it in another way, why Pakistan? 08:32 It's not the only Muslim country in the world, 08:34 it's not the only country 08:36 with the very low general education level. 08:39 So you know, why? 08:42 I don't know the answer to that. 08:44 Maybe you have a better insight than I do. 08:47 Well, I don't think any one knows the full answer 08:49 but you know, you have to ask the question 08:51 because various voices in the Islamic community 08:57 keep trying to characterize this is not Islam. 09:00 Well, it patently is but what I think 09:03 everyone is forgetting is that history of Islam. 09:05 It's a country that's been in a perpetual state 09:08 of paranoia from its founding. 09:11 Remember, Pakistan was formed after this-- 09:15 at the time of the partition-- 09:16 well, it was called the partition of India 09:17 at the time of independence 09:19 and there was a partition along religious grounds 09:22 following religious civil war. 09:24 There was great genocide of Hindus and Muslims, 09:27 they were killing each other and people sort of-- 09:29 the water's parted and as many possible 09:32 Hindus headed east and the Muslim headed west 09:36 and the number of them were trapped up in the-- 09:39 that would be the north-east which became Bangladesh 09:43 but it was east Pakistan for a long time. 09:45 And so there been direct killing by Hindus. 09:50 People are well aware of their religion, 09:52 they were sort of geared up to hate the religious of other 09:55 and that situation is never abated. 09:58 That you know now India and Pakistan 10:00 have nuclear armed combat 10:02 and have gone to war several times. 10:04 Yes. 10:05 And they are constantly-- 10:08 I hesitate to even call it a cold war 10:10 but a low level hot war over the Kashmir, 10:13 a country of war like sense of a country besieged 10:16 and now the US in advertently I think has stirred the pot. 10:20 Initially by funding the Taliban 10:24 which was an extremist element 10:25 there to get rid of the Soviets and now by-- 10:30 I think there some back room permission 10:32 but apparently in defiance of Pakistan authorities 10:35 who keep you know with drones flying over 10:38 and picking off people, killing villages. 10:40 And of course that's characterized 10:42 by their own leaders as well as the religious leaders, 10:45 as Christians attacking Islam. 10:47 So they-- Right. 10:48 They equate Christianity with western-- 10:50 Yes. Yes. 10:51 And they just-- Which is interesting because 10:52 and before we talked about how Christianity was actually-- 10:56 the Middle East is the birth place of Christianity. 10:58 So, I think this things 11:01 that we are dealing within Pakistan 11:03 are problematic areas of Islam generally 11:06 but Pakistan is a special case where they are on display 11:09 in the most extremist radical form. 11:12 Right, well, and you mentioned the Taliban earlier 11:14 and I was wondering-- 11:15 I was thinking as you were speaking, 11:17 we've seen them pushed from Afghanistan into Pakistan. 11:22 Do you think that there's influence 11:24 that people are more sympathetic from Pakistanis 11:26 are more sympathetic now 11:27 to the sort of Taliban mentality? 11:29 Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. 11:31 I think so as well. 11:32 And I think that's the sort of mentality 11:34 that brings this sort of extremism and-- 11:37 Remember what the Taliban are. 11:39 We tend to think of the Taliban as warlords 11:44 and a military force, that's what they became 11:46 but it means the students. Oh. 11:49 These are the religious students from Madrasas, also in Pakistan. 11:54 And religious schools and instruction, 11:56 it's not a bad thing. 11:58 All religions would like to have a concerted campaign 12:02 to teach young people the religion 12:04 and that's how that started out. 12:06 And I wouldn't blame the west entirely 12:08 but we inadvertently strengthen the bad side of it 12:11 by taking these religious zealots in training 12:15 and giving them a focus of the religion 12:19 against the godless occupier. 12:21 So here now you know, Jihad they go up there. 12:25 Well, it's always the case whether they are Jihadis 12:29 or college level revolutionaries 12:34 like in the Spanish Civil War. 12:35 And so people tend to idealistic young people, 12:37 we would talk about with NARLA. 12:39 They have idealism and cynical elders 12:41 sign them up for this or that battle 12:44 and so when that battle is over 12:46 they find it hard to rest, they go somewhere else. 12:49 And this is what we were seeing. 12:50 Unfortunately I believe somewhat faulty religious 12:56 sensibility is sort of encouraged through this. 12:59 Right. Right. 13:00 Well, I know our Seventh-day Adventist church 13:03 is very, very small representation 13:07 there in Pakistan. 13:08 I think Christianity as a whole you know, is-- 13:10 Very relative extremely small percentage, 13:14 it's a fair size numbers. 13:15 And you know we had a hospital in Lahore 13:18 as I remember, in Karachi, sorry, a hospital in Karachi, 13:22 we're not a non-presence 13:24 and some of our Seventh-day Adventist churches 13:26 have been attacked by armed gunman. 13:28 Yes, that's true. I remember that. 13:29 These are very bad dynamics religion 13:32 but at the same time there's a semblance of normalcy. 13:35 Yeah. 13:36 Well, there's not as semblance of normalcy 13:38 for this young man and his family 13:40 and we certainly want to-- 13:41 Well, they were on the knife edge. 13:42 Yeah. 13:43 They don't dare say the wrong thing. 13:44 Yeah. 13:45 And the worst thing about this, it's now a secret. 13:48 We can't make it a secret, 13:50 out church did not know about this 13:52 for nearly two years. 13:55 We only heard about it through general news stories 13:58 from another religious source and we feel culpable to appoint 14:03 but it really means that the local church 14:05 there didn't see fit to tell the larger church audience. 14:10 And this is what I think 14:11 Christians have an obligation to do. 14:12 We were talking before about the Middle East. 14:14 I think we should have a feeling for what Christians 14:17 and oppress religious minority all around the world have 14:20 and we should keep lines of communications, be aware. 14:23 Absolutely. 14:24 Now this is just an incredible time 14:26 for this young man and his family. 14:28 Absolutely. 14:29 Well, better take a break now. 14:31 We'll talk about another example 14:33 of a Seventh-day Adventist in this case 14:35 in prison not directly for his faith 14:38 but because of his faith being in an untenable position. 14:42 We'll be right back. |
Revised 2014-12-17