Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:00:22.84\00:00:25.14
This is a program
that bringings you news,
00:00:25.17\00:00:27.03
views, discussion, opinion
00:00:27.06\00:00:29.18
and up-to-date information
on religious liberty issues
00:00:29.21\00:00:31.91
in the United States
and around the world.
00:00:31.94\00:00:34.52
My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty magazine
00:00:34.55\00:00:38.17
and my guest on the
program is Melissa Reid,
00:00:38.20\00:00:41.16
associate, works with
me on Liberty Magazine,
00:00:41.19\00:00:43.45
associate on Liberty Magazine.
00:00:43.48\00:00:47.47
We could talk about just
about anything as we've--
00:00:47.50\00:00:50.00
you know, I don't
know if you've heard me
00:00:50.03\00:00:52.49
talk me about this Melissa,
00:00:52.52\00:00:53.55
but a number of
times on this program,
00:00:53.58\00:00:55.42
going right
back to the beginning
00:00:55.45\00:00:57.32
when we weren't sure
about what topic to have,
00:00:57.35\00:00:59.23
we just grab the day's paper.
00:00:59.26\00:01:00.85
Yes.
00:01:00.88\00:01:01.91
And open it at random--
in fact not even open then,
00:01:01.94\00:01:04.06
look at the front
cover or front page
00:01:04.09\00:01:06.68
and almost invariably
there would be an issue
00:01:06.71\00:01:08.70
that will relate
to religious liberty.
00:01:08.73\00:01:10.11
So there's no shortage. Right.
00:01:10.14\00:01:12.77
But lately and you
and I have discussed it
00:01:12.80\00:01:15.60
from a Seventh-day
Adventist perspective
00:01:15.63\00:01:17.51
it's troubling from different
quadrants of the campus
00:01:17.54\00:01:21.67
we get stories about
Seventh-day Adventists
00:01:21.70\00:01:23.57
that have been persecuted
00:01:23.60\00:01:25.51
and more than just
harassed imprisoned.
00:01:25.54\00:01:27.55
Right. Right.
00:01:27.58\00:01:29.40
What's one of the cases?
00:01:29.43\00:01:30.46
I know you've follow
these fairly closely.
00:01:30.49\00:01:33.41
Right, well--
00:01:33.44\00:01:34.47
Which one do you
want to mention first?
00:01:34.50\00:01:35.53
Sure, the most recent one
is the story of a young man,
00:01:35.56\00:01:39.60
29 years old in Pakistan,
00:01:39.63\00:01:41.69
Seventh-day
Adventist church member
00:01:41.72\00:01:43.13
and believer, Sajjad Masih
who is recently been convicted
00:01:43.16\00:01:48.72
and is serving a life
sentence for blasphemy.
00:01:48.75\00:01:52.33
The he's-- and the
great irony is that
00:01:52.36\00:01:54.44
he's almost from a legal--
in a legal suspect of lucky.
00:01:54.47\00:01:58.10
I mean, we can put
more than luck to it.
00:01:58.13\00:01:59.89
Yes. Yes.
00:01:59.92\00:02:00.98
No, that's exactly true
00:02:01.01\00:02:02.06
because I think a
lot of times blasphemy
00:02:02.09\00:02:03.95
actually holds a
death sentence, isn't that--
00:02:03.98\00:02:06.31
That's the standard
sentence in Pakistan.
00:02:06.34\00:02:07.82
The standard sentence, right.
00:02:07.85\00:02:09.61
Well, this is a
really interesting case
00:02:09.64\00:02:12.19
and its discouraging case
obviously for our church member
00:02:12.22\00:02:17.76
and his family and we certainly
want to lift them up and prayer
00:02:17.79\00:02:21.54
but it's interesting in the fact
00:02:21.57\00:02:23.10
that the accuser
who has recanted,
00:02:23.13\00:02:27.16
the gentleman, evidently
there was a situation--
00:02:27.19\00:02:29.67
And the love triangle.
00:02:29.70\00:02:30.73
A bit of a love
triangle, very odd situation.
00:02:30.76\00:02:32.85
Nothing really
wrong. Nothing touted off.
00:02:32.88\00:02:35.51
But it was seen in
bad light by the man
00:02:35.54\00:02:39.15
who ended up marrying.
00:02:39.18\00:02:40.23
Right.
00:02:40.26\00:02:41.29
He's intended,
he's-- the young lady
00:02:41.32\00:02:44.29
that he thought he would marry.
00:02:44.32\00:02:45.63
And so he accused
Mr. Masih of blasphemy
00:02:45.66\00:02:50.51
knowing the dire consequences
00:02:50.54\00:02:52.30
that came along with that
charge or with that accusation.
00:02:52.33\00:02:57.34
And so despite the fact
00:02:57.37\00:03:00.25
that the now husband
has recanted and said,
00:03:00.28\00:03:03.89
in fact this didn't happened.
00:03:03.92\00:03:06.30
Mr. Masih has been convicted
00:03:06.33\00:03:07.89
and is serving
his life sentence.
00:03:07.92\00:03:10.75
It's just an
incredible situation.
00:03:10.78\00:03:12.38
And it's worth mentioning
because it has sort of echoes
00:03:12.41\00:03:14.76
of what we fear
in the United States
00:03:14.79\00:03:17.45
with government
tapping of all communications.
00:03:17.48\00:03:21.52
The charge was made on
telephone conversations
00:03:21.55\00:03:24.70
between Masih and the woman
00:03:24.73\00:03:29.21
who was now
married to his rival.
00:03:29.24\00:03:32.02
But from England to Pakistan
00:03:32.05\00:03:34.04
the charge was made that
on these phone conversations.
00:03:34.07\00:03:36.14
He said something
demeaning of Islam
00:03:36.17\00:03:38.76
and that's what blasphemy is.
00:03:38.79\00:03:39.86
It doesn't have to
be something gregarious
00:03:39.89\00:03:41.87
where you know,
there's profanity
00:03:41.90\00:03:43.58
applied to the
prophet or to Allah.
00:03:43.61\00:03:46.62
It's just something a
little slightly disrespectful
00:03:46.65\00:03:49.77
or even in some cases
appropriating Islamic language
00:03:49.80\00:03:54.53
when you are not a
Muslim that's blasphemy.
00:03:54.56\00:03:56.39
Or just denying that,
00:03:56.42\00:03:58.30
you know, Mohamed
is a prophet from God.
00:03:58.33\00:03:59.87
So even to stating your
belief which is regards with it.
00:03:59.90\00:04:03.21
So the charge,
from an outsider's
00:04:03.24\00:04:06.23
point of view is
frivolous anyhow.
00:04:06.26\00:04:07.99
Absolutely.
00:04:08.02\00:04:09.52
But even if you take the Lord
00:04:09.55\00:04:10.80
its full merits
this was a false charge
00:04:10.83\00:04:14.51
because there's no real evidence
00:04:14.54\00:04:15.82
he did do what
the law prohibits.
00:04:15.85\00:04:18.15
No.
00:04:18.18\00:04:19.21
So evidently you know,
our churches got involved
00:04:19.24\00:04:22.65
and this gentleman has an
attorney there in Pakistan,
00:04:22.68\00:04:28.19
there's going to be-- I
guess there's an opportunity--
00:04:28.22\00:04:30.62
For an appeal.
00:04:30.65\00:04:31.68
For an appeal in
a couple of years,
00:04:31.71\00:04:33.77
is that what I am understanding?
00:04:33.80\00:04:34.83
Well, that the
appeal is being lodge now
00:04:34.86\00:04:35.95
but it will take
at least two years.
00:04:35.98\00:04:37.11
It will take at least two years.
00:04:37.14\00:04:38.17
And meanwhile
there he stays in prison
00:04:38.20\00:04:41.84
which is a horrible fate
and an apparent injustice
00:04:41.87\00:04:46.70
but given the volatile situation
there it may save his life
00:04:46.73\00:04:50.60
because if he
were released pending
00:04:50.63\00:04:52.55
during the appeal it's
essentially a 100% sure
00:04:52.58\00:04:56.44
that the religious
leaders in his community--
00:04:56.47\00:04:59.59
we know this because
it's happened many times.
00:04:59.62\00:05:01.24
Yes.
00:05:01.27\00:05:02.30
Would fire up the community say,
00:05:02.33\00:05:03.49
he's an apostate,
he's being convicted,
00:05:03.52\00:05:06.51
he's blighted the name of Islam
and kill him, he's open go.
00:05:06.54\00:05:10.98
It's straight from the Quran,
00:05:11.01\00:05:12.74
you don't have to
say local prejudice,
00:05:12.77\00:05:14.70
its just local
extremist application
00:05:14.73\00:05:17.00
of applying Quranic statement.
00:05:17.03\00:05:19.21
Well, I've seen pictures
from this case of individuals
00:05:19.24\00:05:23.22
outside of either the
courthouse or the prison,
00:05:23.25\00:05:25.48
calling for this exact thing,
00:05:25.51\00:05:27.05
calling for the
death of this young man.
00:05:27.08\00:05:28.44
Sure.
00:05:28.47\00:05:29.72
It's an incredible
story. He should be beheaded.
00:05:29.75\00:05:31.55
That's one of the
religious leader said
00:05:31.58\00:05:33.68
that exactly that
he should be beheaded
00:05:33.71\00:05:36.67
and his body desecrated
00:05:36.70\00:05:38.36
and so because he
dare to profane Islam.
00:05:38.39\00:05:40.39
You're right,
we're unfortunately
00:05:40.42\00:05:42.08
hearing of these
blasphemy stories
00:05:42.11\00:05:45.51
more and more
often from Pakistan.
00:05:45.54\00:05:47.71
We've I think on this show
00:05:47.74\00:05:49.44
talked about the
story of Asia Bibi,
00:05:49.47\00:05:52.53
the housewife in a
small rural area of Pakistan
00:05:52.56\00:05:55.47
was accused by
some fellow women.
00:05:55.50\00:05:59.08
And she was filling
water from the well.
00:05:59.11\00:06:00.84
Right.
00:06:00.87\00:06:02.10
And this is the
anti-woman at the well story,
00:06:02.13\00:06:04.78
this is a biblical one but
it's a wonderful complement.
00:06:04.81\00:06:06.84
Just a young
Christian mother that you know,
00:06:06.87\00:06:10.07
and when you were
talking about Mr. Masih
00:06:10.10\00:06:13.49
and actually how
he might be safer
00:06:13.52\00:06:15.33
in prison right now
made me think of Asia Bibi
00:06:15.36\00:06:17.62
because I know that
that's the case for her.
00:06:17.65\00:06:19.92
If she would let
out of prison right now,
00:06:19.95\00:06:21.46
and I don't think
she's ever been convicted,
00:06:21.49\00:06:23.35
I think she's just..
00:06:23.38\00:06:26.98
I don't know. She was on trial.
00:06:27.01\00:06:30.86
These trials drag on and on
00:06:30.89\00:06:32.94
and it's been pointed out
00:06:32.97\00:06:34.31
probably to be fair to
the Pakistani judiciary,
00:06:34.34\00:06:38.94
it's probably part of
the tactics of the judges
00:06:38.97\00:06:41.81
who were not by
any means all tainted
00:06:41.84\00:06:44.31
with these extremist extremism
00:06:44.34\00:06:46.61
and they trying to apply--
you know, Pakistan and India
00:06:46.64\00:06:49.73
really are on the tale end
of the British legal system,
00:06:49.76\00:06:53.58
they still have
some remnants of that
00:06:53.61\00:06:55.39
and think a bit that way.
00:06:55.42\00:06:56.45
So I think the
judiciary have figured
00:06:56.48\00:06:59.08
that often the way to deal
with this is to tick you know,
00:06:59.11\00:07:02.57
let it sort of
click, tick out very slowly
00:07:02.60\00:07:04.97
and let tensions go down
00:07:05.00\00:07:06.80
and then if possible just sort
of slide it out the back door.
00:07:06.83\00:07:10.72
And all the contacts
that we've able to make
00:07:10.75\00:07:14.56
on this the indications
00:07:14.59\00:07:16.42
that the a life sentence
rather than a death penalty
00:07:16.45\00:07:19.97
is the judiciary's way
to signal to the high court
00:07:20.00\00:07:23.49
that really
there's no substance to it.
00:07:23.52\00:07:25.19
So there's a very good chance
00:07:25.22\00:07:27.02
that his sentence
would be commuted entirely
00:07:27.05\00:07:29.82
or minimized to--
maybe time served or...
00:07:29.85\00:07:32.97
But he would need
to leave the country.
00:07:33.00\00:07:35.39
Incredible.
00:07:35.42\00:07:37.41
And I am trying to remember
the full story of Asia Bibi,
00:07:37.44\00:07:39.54
that was some tome ago
00:07:39.57\00:07:40.60
but the family came
under severe threat,
00:07:40.63\00:07:42.85
that's what happens.
It's not just the one charged.
00:07:42.88\00:07:45.39
Well, the local
religious leader,
00:07:45.42\00:07:47.94
I mean, called for that,
00:07:47.97\00:07:49.29
you know, call for
and so really her being
00:07:49.32\00:07:51.60
in police custody was
actually safer for her family.
00:07:51.63\00:07:55.63
It's incredible situation.
00:07:55.66\00:07:56.89
And then we've seen how,
00:07:56.92\00:07:58.18
seen you know, what happens
00:07:58.21\00:08:01.06
when government leaders
in that country in Pakistan
00:08:01.09\00:08:04.30
speak out against
these blasphemy laws,
00:08:04.33\00:08:09.90
we've seen them murdered
00:08:09.93\00:08:10.96
in front of
their own mother's home
00:08:10.99\00:08:13.20
or by their own bodyguard.
00:08:13.23\00:08:14.85
I mean, it's just
incredible situation
00:08:14.88\00:08:18.17
that it has to be
horrifying to be a part of.
00:08:18.20\00:08:22.54
What do you think
going on in Pakistan?
00:08:22.57\00:08:25.12
I mean, just in your opinion.
00:08:25.15\00:08:27.25
Well, that's a
very broad question.
00:08:27.28\00:08:28.82
Well, wh`at's-- well,
00:08:28.85\00:08:29.88
I put it in
another way, why Pakistan?
00:08:29.91\00:08:32.37
It's not the only
Muslim country in the world,
00:08:32.40\00:08:34.96
it's not the only country
00:08:34.99\00:08:36.79
with the very low
general education level.
00:08:36.82\00:08:39.66
So you know, why?
00:08:39.69\00:08:42.74
I don't know the answer to that.
00:08:42.77\00:08:44.92
Maybe you have a
better insight than I do.
00:08:44.95\00:08:47.27
Well, I don't think any
one knows the full answer
00:08:47.30\00:08:49.38
but you know, you
have to ask the question
00:08:49.41\00:08:51.96
because various voices
in the Islamic community
00:08:51.99\00:08:57.08
keep trying to
characterize this is not Islam.
00:08:57.11\00:09:00.62
Well, it patently
is but what I think
00:09:00.65\00:09:03.15
everyone is forgetting
is that history of Islam.
00:09:03.18\00:09:05.28
It's a country that's
been in a perpetual state
00:09:05.31\00:09:08.22
of paranoia from its founding.
00:09:08.25\00:09:11.81
Remember, Pakistan
was formed after this--
00:09:11.84\00:09:15.01
at the time of the partition--
00:09:15.04\00:09:16.42
well, it was called
the partition of India
00:09:16.45\00:09:17.94
at the time of independence
00:09:17.97\00:09:19.44
and there was a partition
along religious grounds
00:09:19.47\00:09:22.22
following religious civil war.
00:09:22.25\00:09:24.27
There was great
genocide of Hindus and Muslims,
00:09:24.30\00:09:27.41
they were killing each
other and people sort of--
00:09:27.44\00:09:29.77
the water's parted
and as many possible
00:09:29.80\00:09:32.45
Hindus headed east
and the Muslim headed west
00:09:32.48\00:09:36.45
and the number of them
were trapped up in the--
00:09:36.48\00:09:39.52
that would be the north-east
which became Bangladesh
00:09:39.55\00:09:43.13
but it was east
Pakistan for a long time.
00:09:43.16\00:09:45.94
And so there been
direct killing by Hindus.
00:09:45.97\00:09:50.64
People are well
aware of their religion,
00:09:50.67\00:09:52.26
they were sort of geared up
to hate the religious of other
00:09:52.29\00:09:55.05
and that
situation is never abated.
00:09:55.08\00:09:58.53
That you know now
India and Pakistan
00:09:58.56\00:10:00.09
have nuclear armed combat
00:10:00.12\00:10:02.13
and have gone to
war several times.
00:10:02.16\00:10:04.07
Yes.
00:10:04.10\00:10:05.82
And they are constantly--
00:10:05.85\00:10:08.13
I hesitate to
even call it a cold war
00:10:08.16\00:10:10.19
but a low level hot
war over the Kashmir,
00:10:10.22\00:10:13.48
a country of war like
sense of a country besieged
00:10:13.51\00:10:16.61
and now the US in advertently
I think has stirred the pot.
00:10:16.64\00:10:20.60
Initially by funding the Taliban
00:10:20.63\00:10:24.07
which was an extremist element
00:10:24.10\00:10:25.51
there to get rid of
the Soviets and now by--
00:10:25.54\00:10:30.69
I think there some
back room permission
00:10:30.72\00:10:32.81
but apparently in
defiance of Pakistan authorities
00:10:32.84\00:10:35.88
who keep you know
with drones flying over
00:10:35.91\00:10:38.39
and picking off
people, killing villages.
00:10:38.42\00:10:40.96
And of course
that's characterized
00:10:40.99\00:10:42.51
by their own leaders as
well as the religious leaders,
00:10:42.54\00:10:45.12
as Christians attacking Islam.
00:10:45.15\00:10:47.19
So they-- Right.
00:10:47.22\00:10:48.25
They equate
Christianity with western--
00:10:48.28\00:10:50.63
Yes. Yes.
00:10:50.66\00:10:51.79
And they just-- Which
is interesting because
00:10:51.82\00:10:52.90
and before we talked about
how Christianity was actually--
00:10:52.93\00:10:56.31
the Middle East is the
birth place of Christianity.
00:10:56.34\00:10:58.76
So, I think this things
00:10:58.79\00:11:01.79
that we are
dealing within Pakistan
00:11:01.82\00:11:03.32
are problematic
areas of Islam generally
00:11:03.35\00:11:06.72
but Pakistan is a special
case where they are on display
00:11:06.75\00:11:09.82
in the most
extremist radical form.
00:11:09.85\00:11:12.35
Right, well, and you
mentioned the Taliban earlier
00:11:12.38\00:11:14.54
and I was wondering--
00:11:14.57\00:11:15.78
I was thinking as
you were speaking,
00:11:15.81\00:11:17.60
we've seen them pushed
from Afghanistan into Pakistan.
00:11:17.63\00:11:22.59
Do you think
that there's influence
00:11:22.62\00:11:24.35
that people are more
sympathetic from Pakistanis
00:11:24.38\00:11:26.38
are more sympathetic now
00:11:26.41\00:11:27.93
to the sort of
Taliban mentality?
00:11:27.96\00:11:29.94
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.
00:11:29.97\00:11:31.39
I think so as well.
00:11:31.42\00:11:32.77
And I think that's
the sort of mentality
00:11:32.80\00:11:34.92
that brings this
sort of extremism and--
00:11:34.95\00:11:37.09
Remember what the Taliban are.
00:11:37.12\00:11:39.01
We tend to think of
the Taliban as warlords
00:11:39.04\00:11:44.19
and a military force,
that's what they became
00:11:44.22\00:11:46.89
but it means the students. Oh.
00:11:46.92\00:11:49.37
These are the religious students
from Madrasas, also in Pakistan.
00:11:49.40\00:11:54.11
And religious
schools and instruction,
00:11:54.14\00:11:56.50
it's not a bad thing.
00:11:56.53\00:11:58.35
All religions would like
to have a concerted campaign
00:11:58.38\00:12:02.59
to teach young
people the religion
00:12:02.62\00:12:04.24
and that's how that started out.
00:12:04.27\00:12:06.83
And I wouldn't
blame the west entirely
00:12:06.86\00:12:08.57
but we inadvertently
strengthen the bad side of it
00:12:08.60\00:12:11.46
by taking these
religious zealots in training
00:12:11.49\00:12:15.33
and giving them a
focus of the religion
00:12:15.36\00:12:19.36
against the godless occupier.
00:12:19.39\00:12:21.71
So here now you know,
Jihad they go up there.
00:12:21.74\00:12:25.08
Well, it's always the
case whether they are Jihadis
00:12:25.11\00:12:29.16
or college level revolutionaries
00:12:29.19\00:12:33.97
like in the Spanish Civil War.
00:12:34.00\00:12:35.23
And so people tend to
idealistic young people,
00:12:35.26\00:12:37.83
we would talk about with NARLA.
00:12:37.86\00:12:39.48
They have
idealism and cynical elders
00:12:39.51\00:12:41.92
sign them up for
this or that battle
00:12:41.95\00:12:44.37
and so when that battle is over
00:12:44.40\00:12:46.92
they find it hard to
rest, they go somewhere else.
00:12:46.95\00:12:49.84
And this is what we were seeing.
00:12:49.87\00:12:50.96
Unfortunately I believe
somewhat faulty religious
00:12:50.99\00:12:56.58
sensibility is sort of
encouraged through this.
00:12:56.61\00:12:59.68
Right. Right.
00:12:59.71\00:13:00.74
Well, I know our
Seventh-day Adventist church
00:13:00.77\00:13:03.19
is very, very
small representation
00:13:03.22\00:13:07.35
there in Pakistan.
00:13:07.38\00:13:08.46
I think Christianity
as a whole you know, is--
00:13:08.49\00:13:10.54
Very relative
extremely small percentage,
00:13:10.57\00:13:13.97
it's a fair size numbers.
00:13:14.00\00:13:15.90
And you know we had
a hospital in Lahore
00:13:15.93\00:13:18.34
as I remember, in Karachi,
sorry, a hospital in Karachi,
00:13:18.37\00:13:22.23
we're not a non-presence
00:13:22.26\00:13:24.37
and some of our
Seventh-day Adventist churches
00:13:24.40\00:13:26.16
have been
attacked by armed gunman.
00:13:26.19\00:13:28.30
Yes, that's
true. I remember that.
00:13:28.33\00:13:29.42
These are very
bad dynamics religion
00:13:29.45\00:13:32.43
but at the same time
there's a semblance of normalcy.
00:13:32.46\00:13:35.51
Yeah.
00:13:35.54\00:13:36.57
Well, there's not as
semblance of normalcy
00:13:36.60\00:13:38.68
for this young
man and his family
00:13:38.71\00:13:40.15
and we certainly want to--
00:13:40.18\00:13:41.21
Well, they were
on the knife edge.
00:13:41.24\00:13:42.36
Yeah.
00:13:42.39\00:13:43.42
They don't dare
say the wrong thing.
00:13:43.45\00:13:44.56
Yeah.
00:13:44.59\00:13:45.62
And the worst thing
about this, it's now a secret.
00:13:45.65\00:13:48.79
We can't make it a secret,
00:13:48.82\00:13:50.11
out church did
not know about this
00:13:50.14\00:13:52.05
for nearly two years.
00:13:52.08\00:13:55.14
We only heard about it
through general news stories
00:13:55.17\00:13:58.84
from another religious source
and we feel culpable to appoint
00:13:58.87\00:14:03.83
but it really means
that the local church
00:14:03.86\00:14:05.91
there didn't see fit to
tell the larger church audience.
00:14:05.94\00:14:10.34
And this is what I think
00:14:10.37\00:14:11.48
Christians have
an obligation to do.
00:14:11.51\00:14:12.80
We were talking
before about the Middle East.
00:14:12.83\00:14:14.86
I think we should have a
feeling for what Christians
00:14:14.89\00:14:17.75
and oppress religious minority
all around the world have
00:14:17.78\00:14:20.56
and we should keep lines
of communications, be aware.
00:14:20.59\00:14:23.04
Absolutely.
00:14:23.07\00:14:24.32
Now this is just
an incredible time
00:14:24.35\00:14:26.92
for this young
man and his family.
00:14:26.95\00:14:27.98
Absolutely.
00:14:28.01\00:14:29.12
Well, better take a break now.
00:14:29.15\00:14:31.18
We'll talk about another example
00:14:31.21\00:14:33.25
of a Seventh-day
Adventist in this case
00:14:33.28\00:14:35.71
in prison not
directly for his faith
00:14:35.74\00:14:38.35
but because of his faith
being in an untenable position.
00:14:38.38\00:14:42.18
We'll be right back.
00:14:42.21\00:14:43.24