Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Melissa Reed
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000237A
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00:19 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:21 This is a program bringing you news, views, 00:23 information, analysis and discussions 00:26 of religious liberty events in the United States of course 00:29 and around the world. 00:31 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty Magazine. 00:34 And my guest on this program is Melissa Reid, 00:37 associated editor of Liberty Magazine. 00:39 So we got to talk to ourselves here 00:41 in front of the bigger audience. 00:42 Yes. 00:43 But this is-- I really want to tackle a very big topic 00:47 of this program which we've eluted to you before 00:49 but the situation of Christians in the Middle East. 00:53 It's a desperate one. It really is. 00:55 And its seems like its just getting worse, 00:57 worse and worse as we see 00:59 the persecution of the Christian minority 01:02 in various countries spread 01:04 for it goes from one country to the next. 01:06 I know it's not just bad it's getting worse quickly 01:09 and it's spreading quickly the negative situation. 01:11 Yeah. 01:12 But you know most people don't really think it through-- 01:15 clearly at the moment you look at the Middle East, 01:17 it is predominantly Islamic. 01:19 Yes. 01:20 But that's not its original state. 01:23 I mean originally of course all sorts of 01:26 believes by yell and so-- Right. 01:28 But Judaism had its origin in that part of the world. 01:32 Yeah. Yes. Christianity 2,000 years ago. 01:35 And there was a period where Christianity 01:37 was the dominant religion in that part of the world. 01:39 People forget that. 01:40 It's interesting because, you know, 01:43 we as citizens of a democratic nation are, 01:50 you know, are always advocating on behalf of 01:53 democracy and nations and we certainly, 01:56 you know--don't look forward to appreciate the dictatorships. 02:01 But in the Middle Eastern county after the Middle Eastern country 02:05 I think specifically Iraq and then of Egypt 02:09 we've seen once the dictatorship topples 02:16 then the Christian organization or the Christian minority 02:21 no longer now becomes vulnerable 02:25 to sort of the new factions. 02:26 It's not because they were dictatorships 02:28 but the present bunch of regimes that are falling 02:31 most of them have being dictatorships 02:33 and most of them for differing reasons 02:36 of ironically protected Christians. 02:38 Yeah. Yeah. That's what you're talking. 02:39 But you know I knew that they've been a huge shift 02:42 as I said after the expansion of Christianity 02:45 in few centuries after Christ, 02:47 Christianity became dominant force in the Middle East 02:51 and it continued for much of modern history. 02:56 At the time of the crusades they still 02:58 were large enough that it stirred Europe 02:59 to go away for and try to rescue them. 03:01 And of course very few people don't-- 03:03 a very few people really know the story of the crusades 03:05 it was Constantinople the other ruler there, 03:10 the emperor that put out a request to Rome 03:12 for some help. 03:15 They expected a little financial help or may be a 03:18 platoon of guys send over. 03:21 They didn't really expect Jerusalem to be pillaged. 03:24 Yes. 03:25 And that did a lot of harm to the Christian population. 03:28 As Muslims or Christians are like agree now 03:30 the crusades were not a positive thing. 03:33 But that is it was that was bad time 03:36 but 100 years ago Christians were still 03:38 20% of the population in the Middle East. 03:40 Right. 03:41 What are they today have you heard any statistics? 03:43 Oh, it's below 5 %, I am sure. 03:45 Yeah, that's-- They are either-- 03:46 Its how it-- once I looked at several sites this morning 03:50 just to check it on again 03:52 and one thing that was obvious to me that 03:55 by the very nature of the society 03:56 where people don't openly-- 03:59 they are afraid to openly say they're Christians. 04:01 The government is not really even trying to find out 04:05 because they want less Christians to be there. 04:07 So it varies, so its 5% tops, is lowest as 2 %. 04:12 Right. Right. That a huge spread. 04:13 But it's not much and it's getting less all the time. 04:16 And one expert said that by the year 2020, 04:19 it may be even half what it is now. 04:21 Absolutely. I wouldn't be surprised at all. 04:22 I mean we see these individuals 04:25 forced from their homes if they're not 04:28 you know if there's not 04:29 physical violence is happening to them 04:31 their homes are being destroyed 04:32 their places of worship are being destroyed 04:35 and they're being displaced. 04:37 You know, we're hearing all about these refugee camps 04:39 popping up you know inside of Turkey 04:42 coming from Syria with these situations. 04:44 And in Jordan it's the other large. 04:45 And in Jordan as well and you know 04:47 in Iraq we saw that were 04:49 it just this whole segment of the population has been 04:53 forced out or you know 04:56 and that's almost sort of the kindest thing that's been 04:58 happened to them and that's happened to them. 05:00 I remember a few years back we had a 05:02 individual right from Liberty Magazine 05:04 on the persecution of Christians in Iraq specifically 05:09 and I think that was sort of the first place 05:11 that we really saw this happening 05:13 almost sort of the first country to go through the-- 05:15 you know the Arab bring sort of sort of change. 05:19 But he said the line that stuck with me 05:22 which was the only thing that the Sunnis 05:24 and the Shias can agree on. 05:25 Agree on. 05:26 Is how much they hate the Christians? 05:28 Which is very unfortunate but it has worked that way. 05:33 There's been long-term persecution of Christians 05:36 in the Middle East just like Jews in the Soviet Union 05:44 there was continuing programs against the Jesus 05:46 but not every year not all the time 05:48 but it would be cycles. All right. 05:50 And that's what we have seen in the Middle East 05:51 was the Islamic majority. 05:55 They've don't always burn Christian churches 05:58 but they always keep them under a shadow. 06:00 Yes. 06:01 They're under a shariah law 06:03 which was often enforced by the Caliphs 06:06 and the sultans and so on 06:07 and to mention the dictators 06:09 that there was often a payment to be made for protection. 06:13 Its Quran mention it as dimmi, dimmi 06:15 I think it is. Okay. 06:16 So which was a reminder that there are vassal 06:19 religion within-- a confessional state to use 06:21 a Catholic term for countries that were warningly Catholic. 06:24 Well, that was a question I had what was the motivation 06:27 for you know for such hatred to this 06:29 organization because for the most part again 06:31 we are talking about you know a very small minority. 06:34 You know we started it was may be out its heyday 06:37 about 20% now down to about five. 06:40 They're very much are living in the shadows. 06:43 You know they're not the ones that are advocating 06:45 for change or for things like-- 06:46 So what is that, that ignites this hatred of them? 06:49 Well, you can see that this country 06:51 not as viciously promoted 06:53 but religion is the flush point issue for every one 06:57 because religion is important. 06:58 And when there is a minority 07:01 that aren't socially acceptable 07:03 then there're some social problem, 07:04 it's very easy for politicians and even 07:07 the religiously leaders on the majority 07:09 they try to deflect or to capitalize on the situation 07:12 and blame that groups. 07:13 So they become a lightening riot for other troubles. 07:18 They're just ready, ready, readymade for persecution. 07:20 Yes, yes. 07:21 And so we know that, that you mentioned in Iraq 07:24 there was a civil war there. 07:25 Well, everyone is fighting everyone else but 07:28 in a perverse way it's strangely unifying 07:31 for them to pick on the common enemy. 07:33 Exact. Yeah. 07:34 Then in Syria dissatisfaction against the regime, 07:39 very hard for people to attack the regime directly 07:42 but Christians were perceived as a protected 07:46 minority of this state they hated. 07:48 So to attack the state you attack the Christians. 07:50 Therefore you're harming the friend 07:52 or the favorite child of the hated rulers. 07:57 Well, we've talked in another episode about this, 07:59 this bill that just passed and how some were hoping 08:02 that a senate version will pass soon, 08:04 the special envoy for religious freedom in the Middle East. 08:07 And we certainly would like to see more attention 08:12 brought to this situation. 08:13 Well, it's an interesting point 08:14 and thanks for the reminder of that 08:16 and I don't know if has been any change 08:18 but when you who perhaps would be that special envoy. 08:23 Yeah. 08:24 It's someone that we-- and I don't name of them 08:26 but some of we were closely within and they would be 08:28 very good in that. 08:33 Systematically that would be help as far as the system 08:35 it would help to have that person. 08:37 But there's no lack of information. 08:38 Right. 08:40 And on the internet the other day I saw a site 08:43 directed to Christians. 08:44 In fact I'm gonna pick up some of the Liberty Magazine 08:46 but it asked the question, 08:48 you know how come there's not more outrage 08:50 and pulpits across the United States? 08:52 How come Christians aren't worked about this? Yeah. 08:54 This is arguably the largest 08:57 or most general persecution and-- forget prosecution, 09:00 genocide against Christians 09:02 that we're seeing certainly since the days of the early 09:04 Christian prosecution and Diocletian. 09:06 Right. 09:07 This is not a minor time in history. 09:09 It's almost done precedented. 09:11 And probably that too, yeah, 09:12 why isn't that resonating? 09:13 I don't really don't know the answer but it's obvious. 09:15 It's not that there is no concern but you know 09:18 we had another program on Hobby Lobby thing 09:21 and the religious persecution of Christian owned businesses 09:25 that are forced to offer a mandate. 09:27 Well, you know there might be some little argument there but 09:29 it pales in comparison to out now genocide of murder-- 09:35 daily murder of lots of Christians, 09:36 whole churches. Right. 09:38 There was a church in, was it in Syria but recently 09:44 I think about 80 people killed the whole-- 09:45 everybody in the church was gunned down. 09:47 Yes, yes. We see the situation. 09:49 Yeah, no, it's almost offensive to refer that 09:52 what happens in United States as persecution, 09:55 you know, as far as religious freedom issues goes. 09:58 There's certainly you know real situations 10:00 and you know they affect individuals 10:02 but we're actually seeing you know families just placed, 10:06 killed, you know, their homes bombed 10:09 and burnt and destroyed. 10:11 I have seen some images that have been heartening 10:16 in the mists of all this turmoil. 10:18 I have seen images of Muslim neighbors 10:20 protecting churches and Christian families 10:24 and not certainly has been heartening. 10:25 We know that you know it's never as cut and dry 10:28 as one religion against another. 10:30 Of course not, you know in any situation 10:34 there are many people in fact even perhaps the majority 10:37 whether they're Muslims, Christians 10:39 whether they're Democrats or Republicans 10:41 that they're good people. Yes. 10:44 There is a common humanity and very often 10:46 we lift to appeal to that. Right. 10:48 And biblically we know that God Spirit 10:50 moves up on people its no yet removed. 10:52 Yes. 10:53 But that's it there is some incredibly negative forces 10:58 at the moment that play in the Middle East. 11:00 And this particular group of individuals 11:02 these questions are certainly being targeted. 11:04 Well, you know lets just look at Iraq 11:08 there were 1,000,000 Christians there under Saddam Hussein 11:12 protected under law as all religions were. 11:17 Equal protection-- not equal social protection 11:19 because they were negative vibes in the community 11:21 against them but they had legal protection. 11:24 After the war and after the civil war 11:26 after the chaos that ensued there are now only 200,000 left. 11:31 Right. 11:32 And now they're not all dead but many of them are. 11:34 Yeah. 11:35 They're all but 200,000 gone. 11:37 Now in Syria there're two-and-half million Christians 11:40 equally protected under law by a bad regime. 11:43 Right. 11:44 In that regard it was good. 11:45 It legally protected them. 11:48 They're fleeing for their lives. 11:49 There are five hundred and some thousand in 11:55 I think mostly in Jordan but certainly 11:58 there're around 500,000 refugees and most of those 12:01 has been determined to Christians. 12:03 Right, right. 12:04 So the same exodus is taking place. 12:05 Same right. 12:06 But if it would be a social tragedy 12:09 if they were just leaving but leaving 12:12 because many of them are being killed. 12:13 Right, right, absolutely. 12:15 So what is then our response both as a nation 12:17 both as the United States and then also you know 12:19 as the private citizen? 12:21 You know we talked about it's surprising that 12:23 we're not more outraged, you know, 12:25 western Christians are more outraged but 12:27 what do we have in our arsenal that we can do 12:31 to help these individuals? 12:32 Well, not, not a lot in my view 12:34 and that's the frustration on this. 12:39 The US government I think could make equal complaint 12:44 to the world opinion about religious persecution 12:48 is about biological agents 12:50 that would be one significant change. 12:52 We would be speaking with the moral voice. 12:54 I'm not diminishing the other thing it's terrific. 12:59 But we don't speak much publicly 13:00 as a politically entity about this 13:04 but I think the real value 13:07 and the shift that it would entail 13:09 as if North American, United States Christians 13:14 if they raise their voices in outrage 13:16 it would divert or which show 13:18 that there was a change in sensibility. 13:19 Because an awful lot of religious liberty 13:22 activity in the United States in my view 13:24 is incredible self-interest. 13:25 Right. It's selfish. 13:27 Right, well, we're human beings. 13:29 Yes. 13:30 So, this would create an altruism where would see 13:32 the true principle of play rather than, you know, 13:36 I want my government to give way to me. 13:38 Not because I'm under deep conviction 13:40 I just demand it. 13:41 You know it's sort of like I think 13:43 I'm the customer and you know. 13:44 Yes. You got to change. 13:45 Yeah, absolutely. 13:46 Where it's great privilege to live under a system 13:51 that makes legal allowance and you and as polled 13:54 you take advantage of it. 13:55 But you don't have to have a legal allowance 13:58 to really defy religious liberty. 14:01 Oh, that's absolutely true. 14:03 Absolutely, thank you for conforming my comment. 14:06 But we will back after the break 14:08 stay with us when we continue 14:09 this discussion of what's happening 14:11 in the Middle East and religious ability. |
Revised 2014-12-17