Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is a program
bringing you news, views,
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information,
analysis and discussions
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of religious liberty events
in the United States of course
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and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty Magazine.
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And my guest on this
program is Melissa Reid,
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associated editor
of Liberty Magazine.
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So we got to
talk to ourselves here
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in front of the bigger audience.
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Yes.
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But this is-- I really
want to tackle a very big topic
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of this program which
we've eluted to you before
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but the situation of
Christians in the Middle East.
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It's a desperate
one. It really is.
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And its seems like
its just getting worse,
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worse and worse as we see
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the persecution of
the Christian minority
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in various countries spread
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for it goes from
one country to the next.
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I know it's not just bad
it's getting worse quickly
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and it's spreading
quickly the negative situation.
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Yeah.
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But you know most people
don't really think it through--
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clearly at the moment
you look at the Middle East,
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it is predominantly Islamic.
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Yes.
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But that's not
its original state.
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I mean originally
of course all sorts of
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believes by yell and so-- Right.
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But Judaism had its origin
in that part of the world.
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Yeah. Yes.
Christianity 2,000 years ago.
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And there was a
period where Christianity
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was the dominant religion
in that part of the world.
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People forget that.
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It's interesting
because, you know,
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we as citizens of a
democratic nation are,
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you know, are always
advocating on behalf of
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democracy and
nations and we certainly,
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you know--don't look forward
to appreciate the dictatorships.
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But in the Middle Eastern county
after the Middle Eastern country
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I think specifically
Iraq and then of Egypt
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we've seen once the
dictatorship topples
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then the Christian organization
or the Christian minority
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no longer now becomes vulnerable
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to sort of the new factions.
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It's not because
they were dictatorships
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but the present bunch
of regimes that are falling
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most of them have
being dictatorships
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and most of them
for differing reasons
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of ironically
protected Christians.
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Yeah. Yeah. That's
what you're talking.
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But you know I knew that
they've been a huge shift
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as I said after the
expansion of Christianity
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in few centuries after Christ,
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Christianity became dominant
force in the Middle East
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and it continued for
much of modern history.
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At the time of the
crusades they still
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were large enough
that it stirred Europe
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to go away for and
try to rescue them.
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And of course
very few people don't--
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a very few people really
know the story of the crusades
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it was Constantinople
the other ruler there,
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the emperor that put
out a request to Rome
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for some help.
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They expected a little
financial help or may be a
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platoon of guys send over.
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They didn't really
expect Jerusalem to be pillaged.
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Yes.
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And that did a lot of harm
to the Christian population.
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As Muslims or
Christians are like agree now
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the crusades were
not a positive thing.
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But that is it
was that was bad time
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but 100 years ago
Christians were still
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20% of the
population in the Middle East.
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Right.
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What are they today have
you heard any statistics?
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Oh, it's below 5 %, I am sure.
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Yeah, that's-- They are either--
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Its how it-- once I looked
at several sites this morning
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just to check it on again
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and one thing that
was obvious to me that
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by the very
nature of the society
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where people don't openly--
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they are afraid to
openly say they're Christians.
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The government is not
really even trying to find out
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because they want less
Christians to be there.
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So it varies, so its
5% tops, is lowest as 2 %.
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Right. Right.
That a huge spread.
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But it's not much and
it's getting less all the time.
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And one expert said
that by the year 2020,
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it may be even
half what it is now.
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Absolutely. I
wouldn't be surprised at all.
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I mean we see these individuals
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forced from their
homes if they're not
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you know if there's not
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physical violence
is happening to them
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their homes are being destroyed
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their places of
worship are being destroyed
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and they're being displaced.
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You know, we're hearing
all about these refugee camps
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popping up you
know inside of Turkey
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coming from Syria
with these situations.
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And in Jordan
it's the other large.
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And in Jordan as
well and you know
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in Iraq we saw that were
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it just this whole segment
of the population has been
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forced out or you know
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and that's almost sort of
the kindest thing that's been
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happened to them and
that's happened to them.
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I remember a few
years back we had a
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individual right
from Liberty Magazine
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on the persecution of
Christians in Iraq specifically
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and I think that was
sort of the first place
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that we really
saw this happening
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almost sort of the first
country to go through the--
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you know the Arab
bring sort of sort of change.
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But he said the
line that stuck with me
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which was the only
thing that the Sunnis
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and the Shias can agree on.
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Agree on.
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Is how much they
hate the Christians?
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Which is very unfortunate
but it has worked that way.
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There's been long-term
persecution of Christians
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in the Middle East just
like Jews in the Soviet Union
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there was continuing
programs against the Jesus
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but not every
year not all the time
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but it would be
cycles. All right.
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And that's what we
have seen in the Middle East
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was the Islamic majority.
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They've don't always
burn Christian churches
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but they always
keep them under a shadow.
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Yes.
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They're under a shariah law
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which was often
enforced by the Caliphs
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and the sultans and so on
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and to mention the dictators
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that there was often a payment
to be made for protection.
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Its Quran mention
it as dimmi, dimmi
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I think it is. Okay.
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So which was a
reminder that there are vassal
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religion within-- a
confessional state to use
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a Catholic term for countries
that were warningly Catholic.
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Well, that was a question
I had what was the motivation
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for you know for
such hatred to this
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organization because
for the most part again
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we are talking about you
know a very small minority.
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You know we started it
was may be out its heyday
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about 20% now
down to about five.
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They're very much are
living in the shadows.
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You know they're not
the ones that are advocating
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for change or for things like--
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So what is that, that
ignites this hatred of them?
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Well, you can
see that this country
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not as viciously promoted
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but religion is the
flush point issue for every one
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because religion is important.
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And when there is a minority
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that aren't socially acceptable
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then there're
some social problem,
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it's very easy for
politicians and even
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the religiously
leaders on the majority
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they try to deflect or to
capitalize on the situation
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and blame that groups.
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So they become a lightening
riot for other troubles.
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They're just ready, ready,
readymade for persecution.
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Yes, yes.
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And so we know that,
that you mentioned in Iraq
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there was a civil war there.
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Well, everyone is
fighting everyone else but
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in a perverse way
it's strangely unifying
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for them to pick
on the common enemy.
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Exact. Yeah.
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Then in Syria dissatisfaction
against the regime,
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very hard for people to
attack the regime directly
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but Christians were
perceived as a protected
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minority of this
state they hated.
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So to attack the state
you attack the Christians.
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Therefore you're
harming the friend
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or the favorite
child of the hated rulers.
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Well, we've talked in
another episode about this,
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this bill that just
passed and how some were hoping
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that a senate
version will pass soon,
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the special envoy for religious
freedom in the Middle East.
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And we certainly would
like to see more attention
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brought to this situation.
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Well, it's an interesting point
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and thanks for
the reminder of that
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and I don't know
if has been any change
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but when you who perhaps
would be that special envoy.
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Yeah.
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It's someone that we--
and I don't name of them
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but some of we were
closely within and they would be
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very good in that.
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Systematically that would
be help as far as the system
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it would help to
have that person.
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But there's no
lack of information.
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Right.
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And on the internet
the other day I saw a site
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directed to Christians.
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In fact I'm gonna pick up
some of the Liberty Magazine
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but it asked the question,
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you know how come
there's not more outrage
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and pulpits
across the United States?
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How come Christians
aren't worked about this? Yeah.
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This is arguably the largest
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or most general persecution
and-- forget prosecution,
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genocide against Christians
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that we're seeing certainly
since the days of the early
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Christian
prosecution and Diocletian.
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Right.
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This is not a
minor time in history.
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It's almost done precedented.
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And probably that too, yeah,
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why isn't that resonating?
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I don't really don't know
the answer but it's obvious.
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It's not that there is
no concern but you know
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we had another
program on Hobby Lobby thing
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and the religious persecution
of Christian owned businesses
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that are forced
to offer a mandate.
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Well, you know there might be
some little argument there but
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it pales in comparison to
out now genocide of murder--
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daily murder of
lots of Christians,
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whole churches. Right.
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There was a church in,
was it in Syria but recently
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I think about 80
people killed the whole--
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everybody in the
church was gunned down.
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Yes, yes. We see the situation.
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Yeah, no, it's almost
offensive to refer that
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what happens in
United States as persecution,
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you know, as far as
religious freedom issues goes.
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There's certainly
you know real situations
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and you know they
affect individuals
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but we're actually seeing
you know families just placed,
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killed, you know,
their homes bombed
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and burnt and destroyed.
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I have seen some images
that have been heartening
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in the mists of
all this turmoil.
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I have seen images
of Muslim neighbors
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protecting churches
and Christian families
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and not certainly
has been heartening.
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We know that you know
it's never as cut and dry
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as one religion against another.
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Of course not, you
know in any situation
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there are many people in
fact even perhaps the majority
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whether they're
Muslims, Christians
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whether they're
Democrats or Republicans
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that they're good people. Yes.
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There is a common
humanity and very often
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we lift to
appeal to that. Right.
00:10:46.28\00:10:48.19
And biblically we
know that God Spirit
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moves up on people
its no yet removed.
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Yes.
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But that's it there is
some incredibly negative forces
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at the moment that
play in the Middle East.
00:10:58.18\00:11:00.09
And this particular
group of individuals
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these questions are
certainly being targeted.
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Well, you know
lets just look at Iraq
00:11:04.93\00:11:08.51
there were 1,000,000 Christians
there under Saddam Hussein
00:11:08.54\00:11:12.74
protected under law
as all religions were.
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Equal protection-- not
equal social protection
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because they were
negative vibes in the community
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against them but
they had legal protection.
00:11:21.97\00:11:24.42
After the war and
after the civil war
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after the chaos that ensued
there are now only 200,000 left.
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Right.
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And now they're not all
dead but many of them are.
00:11:32.41\00:11:34.19
Yeah.
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They're all but 200,000 gone.
00:11:35.37\00:11:37.77
Now in Syria there're
two-and-half million Christians
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equally protected
under law by a bad regime.
00:11:40.93\00:11:43.60
Right.
00:11:43.63\00:11:44.66
In that regard it was good.
00:11:44.69\00:11:45.79
It legally protected them.
00:11:45.82\00:11:48.07
They're fleeing for their lives.
00:11:48.10\00:11:49.90
There are five
hundred and some thousand in
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I think mostly in
Jordan but certainly
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there're around 500,000
refugees and most of those
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has been
determined to Christians.
00:12:01.87\00:12:03.03
Right, right.
00:12:03.06\00:12:04.09
So the same
exodus is taking place.
00:12:04.12\00:12:05.82
Same right.
00:12:05.85\00:12:06.88
But if it would
be a social tragedy
00:12:06.91\00:12:09.83
if they were just
leaving but leaving
00:12:09.86\00:12:12.20
because many of
them are being killed.
00:12:12.23\00:12:13.60
Right, right, absolutely.
00:12:13.63\00:12:15.07
So what is then our
response both as a nation
00:12:15.10\00:12:17.44
both as the United
States and then also you know
00:12:17.47\00:12:19.81
as the private citizen?
00:12:19.84\00:12:21.17
You know we talked
about it's surprising that
00:12:21.20\00:12:23.35
we're not more
outraged, you know,
00:12:23.38\00:12:25.91
western Christians
are more outraged but
00:12:25.94\00:12:27.55
what do we have in
our arsenal that we can do
00:12:27.58\00:12:31.48
to help these individuals?
00:12:31.51\00:12:32.77
Well, not, not a lot in my view
00:12:32.80\00:12:34.73
and that's the
frustration on this.
00:12:34.76\00:12:39.34
The US government I think
could make equal complaint
00:12:39.37\00:12:44.27
to the world opinion
about religious persecution
00:12:44.30\00:12:48.37
is about biological agents
00:12:48.40\00:12:50.75
that would be one
significant change.
00:12:50.78\00:12:52.64
We would be speaking
with the moral voice.
00:12:52.67\00:12:54.85
I'm not diminishing the
other thing it's terrific.
00:12:54.88\00:12:58.99
But we don't speak much publicly
00:12:59.02\00:13:00.96
as a politically
entity about this
00:13:00.99\00:13:04.78
but I think the real value
00:13:04.81\00:13:07.10
and the shift
that it would entail
00:13:07.13\00:13:09.18
as if North American,
United States Christians
00:13:09.21\00:13:13.99
if they raise
their voices in outrage
00:13:14.02\00:13:16.48
it would divert or which show
00:13:16.51\00:13:18.41
that there was a
change in sensibility.
00:13:18.44\00:13:19.93
Because an awful
lot of religious liberty
00:13:19.96\00:13:22.54
activity in the
United States in my view
00:13:22.57\00:13:24.34
is incredible self-interest.
00:13:24.37\00:13:25.79
Right. It's selfish.
00:13:25.82\00:13:27.04
Right, well, we're human beings.
00:13:27.07\00:13:29.33
Yes.
00:13:29.36\00:13:30.41
So, this would create
an altruism where would see
00:13:30.44\00:13:32.55
the true principle of
play rather than, you know,
00:13:32.58\00:13:36.03
I want my
government to give way to me.
00:13:36.06\00:13:38.26
Not because I'm
under deep conviction
00:13:38.29\00:13:40.31
I just demand it.
00:13:40.34\00:13:41.40
You know it's
sort of like I think
00:13:41.43\00:13:43.36
I'm the customer and you know.
00:13:43.39\00:13:44.75
Yes. You got to change.
00:13:44.78\00:13:45.81
Yeah, absolutely.
00:13:45.84\00:13:46.87
Where it's great
privilege to live under a system
00:13:46.90\00:13:51.20
that makes legal
allowance and you and as polled
00:13:51.23\00:13:54.02
you take advantage of it.
00:13:54.05\00:13:55.45
But you don't have to
have a legal allowance
00:13:55.48\00:13:58.79
to really defy
religious liberty.
00:13:58.82\00:14:01.87
Oh, that's absolutely true.
00:14:01.90\00:14:03.47
Absolutely, thank you
for conforming my comment.
00:14:03.50\00:14:06.43
But we will back after the break
00:14:06.46\00:14:08.13
stay with us when we continue
00:14:08.16\00:14:09.61
this discussion
of what's happening
00:14:09.64\00:14:11.23
in the Middle East
and religious ability.
00:14:11.26\00:14:13.00