Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Melissa Reed
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000235B
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00:06 Welcome back to Liberty Insider.
00:08 Before the break with Melissa Reid, 00:10 associate editor of Liberty magazine, 00:14 me the editor of the Liberty, just to put it in context 00:17 and this is an internal liberty discussion of sort. 00:20 Just like we're sitting in the office. Right. 00:22 And we do have similar discussion 00:24 but we were discussing Hobby Lobby, 00:27 this national Hobby craft store chain 00:33 and the Green family owners 00:35 who are deeply committed Christians. 00:38 I don't question that for a minute. 00:39 And we say we respect them for those specifically. 00:40 Absolutely. Yes. 00:41 And just like the Chickafella-- 00:46 Oh, Chick-fil-A. 00:48 Yeah, Chick-fil-A. Yes. 00:49 That company is closed every Sunday 00:53 when they could make great money, 00:54 I am sure if they open on Sunday 00:55 but they believe biblically ironically 00:59 I'm Seventh-day Adventist but they believe that 01:01 that's the Sabbath they should keep. 01:03 Yes. 01:04 I mean, that's a great commitment, 01:05 you have to admire that. 01:06 Absolutely. 01:07 So, you know, anything in this discussion, 01:09 you know, it's not for me 01:10 to question the sincerity of someone. 01:12 But structurally or what's the play here 01:15 makes me very uncomfortable. 01:17 Yeah, yeah. 01:18 And it's been cast, as you said in the break, 01:21 as a religious liberty issue 01:23 and it's a great imposition against Christians. 01:25 But if you really look at it dispassionately, 01:29 are the Christians being disadvantage 01:30 or they being denatured in their attempts to get others 01:36 who don't make that claim to act as they do? 01:39 Yeah. No, absolutely. 01:40 I think one other things that we mentioned 01:43 during the break was the idea that it's a very-- 01:48 it goes against our sort of our Protestant ideals 01:52 as far as the individual having the right, 01:54 him having the relationship one on one 01:56 and the commitment one on one with our Savior. 01:59 Yes, and I cease on that 02:01 when you said that it is very true 02:03 and it's perhaps true, the viewers might realize 02:07 because there is a major shift, 02:10 might be the wrong word 02:11 but I-- a redefinition going on at the moment 02:16 led by the Roman Catholic Church 02:17 but it's taken root in governmental circles, 02:22 even Protestants are pushing it 02:24 and it's emphasizing the public good 02:27 or the corporate religious interest 02:30 over the individual religious interests. 02:32 Right. Right. 02:34 And I don't think that both dwell at all religious freedom. 02:38 I don't either. 02:40 You know, I certainly appreciate, 02:42 one thing I appreciate about our church, 02:45 the Seventh-day Adventist church is that for the-- 02:48 we are very deliberately a political. 02:51 We don't take positions on issues 02:56 that are not related to our core doctrines. 02:58 We don't go out and have astound by every time 03:01 there's particular issue going on and take a firm stands. 03:04 Because as a church our organization-- 03:06 our mantra or reason for existing is evangelism, 03:10 it's introducing-- yeah, it's introducing. 03:12 It's not you know, going in front of the camera 03:14 and saying, here's what we believe 03:16 because that's our church members believes. 03:18 You know, we all come together 03:20 as this corporate body with the-- 03:22 you know, with similar believes. 03:23 But we do not speak on behalf of our individual consciousness 03:27 and I really appreciate that as a member. 03:29 I know it can be frustrating sometimes 03:31 because if you as an individual have a particular belief 03:36 and you want your church to stand behind you 03:38 and have this back or whatever. 03:39 And many times again, if it's related 03:41 to our belief system and our doctrines 03:43 then we do take firm stands. 03:44 This is the moral principal. 03:45 And moral principles, exactly. 03:46 Of course the church should has spoken at. Right. 03:48 But you are right, our church-- again, 03:52 I need to qualify when you say it's not political, 03:55 it's not partisan. Exactly. 03:57 You can't help but being political. 03:59 And I have to say this because I am sure 04:01 there's people watching this program think, 04:03 now they talk about political things, 04:04 of course it's political. 04:05 Yes, partisan is correct. 04:06 Can't avoid that but we shouldn't be partisan. 04:08 But what you are saying I think is even true as well. 04:12 The Adventist church or any Christian 04:16 or indeed I think any religious faith, 04:18 it's dangerous to be political. 04:22 Jesus was quite polite 04:23 that His solution was another world. 04:26 Absolutely. Is to change individuals. 04:28 So when a church is too involved 04:30 politically even if it's not partisan, 04:32 I think it's sort of skewed from the real emphasis 04:35 of Christian living, regeneration 04:37 and preparation for, for spiritual eternity. 04:41 Right. 04:42 Well, and that's why we see 04:43 you know, very frequently on here in the magazine 04:46 we hear this idea of the Christian nation 04:47 and things like that. 04:49 To me that's very reminiscing of the disciples 04:51 and them wanting to establish, 04:53 you know, this kingdom here on earth. 04:55 I think you know, several thousand years later 04:57 we still sort of haven't learned 04:59 as Christians, as followers of Christ. 05:00 That's the human tendency. Yeah. 05:02 We are all Judah at a time. 05:05 Now that was Judah's problem. 05:06 Morally he turned out to be a traitor. 05:08 Yeah. 05:09 But it's very obvious 05:11 that Judah shared this sort of assumption, 05:12 the kingdom of heaven now, you know, a kingdom. 05:15 He want to have Jesus crowned. 05:19 The story is fairly planned 05:21 and Adventists have dwelt on a little lot 05:25 that after that triumphal entry 05:26 that the crown was offered to Jesus. 05:28 Yes. 05:29 And of course He turned it down, 05:30 that was as He said before Pilot, 05:32 "My kingdom is not of this world." 05:33 Right. Amen. 05:34 And that's a-- I am-- 05:35 and I am so happy that that's the case. 05:37 Yeah. 05:38 Well, now because He also, 05:39 Jesus made the comment again 05:41 and close at that time, he said, you know, 05:43 "All that take up the sword will die by the sword." 05:46 So if you get too hung up with this world, 05:47 this world will chew you up and spit you out. 05:49 Absolutely. 05:50 Christ kingdom is another order. 05:52 Absolutely. 05:53 So back then to Hobby Lobby 05:55 and for a profit business having rights, 05:58 do you feel like they should have no rights 06:02 or do you think they should have more rights 06:04 than the individual or where are you standing? 06:07 No, I don't think they should have more rights 06:08 but we need to be careful, they are not singled out 06:11 and one of the courts analyzed this in relation 06:17 to the Religious Freedom Restriction Act 06:19 which is interesting. 06:20 We often say that it's correctly 06:23 that it been declared on constitutional 06:25 but not in valid for the Federal Government. 06:27 And so this is more relation to how the Federal Government, 06:30 look at businesses, corporations. 06:32 Right. 06:34 And no, I don't think they have more right 06:37 but remember, the Supreme Court have said 06:40 that corporations are individuals. 06:41 Yeah. 06:42 And yet-- 06:45 I've got to put my glasses on to pick up my own notes 06:47 but I noticed that the Sixth Circuit 06:50 said that, "A Roman Catholic 06:51 manufacturing company in Michigan is not a person." 06:56 Well, that's interesting. 06:57 Yes, I think so they have set up a contradiction. 07:00 Yeah. 07:01 And certainly they should not have rights 07:05 greater than the individual. 07:07 That's why I said, the individual 07:08 constant drive should triumph the other. 07:09 Right. 07:10 And I think in a secular environment 07:13 we don't want even an individual 07:16 but certainly a business that sort of faceless, 07:18 representing a religious interest, 07:20 we don't want it having the ability to-- 07:23 and this is by force or by mandate or you know 07:28 by default to restrict other people's choices. 07:32 Right. 07:33 Well, so and then if we want to keep it on 07:36 religious exemptions 07:39 and the religious freedom of a business 07:40 but take it on to the small business level 07:42 and then move to the same sex marriage debate 07:45 and we're seeing several situations were 07:48 it's a wedding cake designer or a-- 07:50 You opened up something we can could spend a case on it 07:52 and I really believe that's where this is heading. 07:54 Yeah. 07:57 The Roman Catholics being consistent on contraception 07:59 and that's important 08:00 but I think this is phase two, 08:01 it's gonna be on the gay marriage issue. 08:03 Yeah. 08:04 Well, it certainly is an interesting discussion 08:06 and like I said, we're so grateful 08:08 that this family that runs this organization 08:12 are so-- are such passionate Christians, 08:16 passionate advocates for their believes 08:18 and so we certainly don't want to take anything 08:20 away from that conversation 08:22 or from those-- from their stands there. 08:25 But it's an interesting conversation 08:27 as far as religious freedom of an organization, 08:31 of a-- for profit business 08:33 and should those rights triumph the rights 08:35 of their individual employee. 08:40 Often when talking of the religious liberty leaders 08:43 and particularly lawyers involved 08:45 in religious liberty affairs 08:47 we get on to the discussions 08:49 of where these religious liberty extend. 08:51 And almost invariably they will say something like, 08:53 well, you can't, you can't yell fire in a crowded room. 08:56 That's not allowed. 08:57 There's a certain level that's unacceptable. 09:00 And in my view Hobby Lobby 09:03 and the Roman Catholic churches 09:06 claims that their religious freedom are being restricted 09:09 by the healthcare mandate. 09:11 Well, I am not totally wrong, 09:13 I at least fire with the lower case 09:17 if because in reality there are huge 09:20 religious liberty issues at stake in the United States. 09:24 There are huge religious liberty tragedies at play in the world, 09:28 not least in the Middle East 09:31 where Christians are being killed in large numbers. 09:33 And while I wouldn't dismiss these concerns of the individual 09:38 and the business feeling uncomfortable 09:41 with being required even to provide 09:43 a certain care that's inconsistent. 09:46 We need to keep things in perspective 09:49 and not cold fire where this merely kindling. 09:54 With Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2014-12-17