Welcome back to Liberty Insider.
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Before the break
with Melissa Reid,
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associate editor
of Liberty magazine,
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me the editor of the Liberty,
just to put it in context
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and this is an internal
liberty discussion of sort.
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Just like we're
sitting in the office. Right.
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And we do have
similar discussion
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but we were
discussing Hobby Lobby,
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this national
Hobby craft store chain
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and the Green family owners
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who are deeply
committed Christians.
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I don't question
that for a minute.
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And we say we respect
them for those specifically.
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Absolutely. Yes.
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And just like the Chickafella--
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Oh, Chick-fil-A.
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Yeah, Chick-fil-A. Yes.
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That company is
closed every Sunday
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when they could
make great money,
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I am sure if they open on Sunday
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but they believe
biblically ironically
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I'm Seventh-day
Adventist but they believe that
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that's the
Sabbath they should keep.
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Yes.
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I mean, that's a
great commitment,
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you have to admire that.
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Absolutely.
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So, you know,
anything in this discussion,
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you know, it's not for me
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to question the
sincerity of someone.
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But structurally or
what's the play here
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makes me very uncomfortable.
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Yeah, yeah.
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And it's been cast,
as you said in the break,
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as a religious liberty issue
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and it's a great
imposition against Christians.
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But if you really
look at it dispassionately,
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are the
Christians being disadvantage
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or they being denatured in
their attempts to get others
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who don't make that
claim to act as they do?
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Yeah. No, absolutely.
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I think one other
things that we mentioned
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during the break was
the idea that it's a very--
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it goes against our
sort of our Protestant ideals
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as far as the
individual having the right,
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him having the
relationship one on one
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and the commitment one
on one with our Savior.
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Yes, and I cease on that
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when you said
that it is very true
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and it's perhaps true,
the viewers might realize
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because there is a major shift,
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might be the wrong word
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but I-- a redefinition
going on at the moment
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led by the Roman Catholic Church
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but it's taken root
in governmental circles,
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even Protestants are pushing it
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and it's
emphasizing the public good
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or the corporate
religious interest
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over the individual
religious interests.
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Right. Right.
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And I don't think that both
dwell at all religious freedom.
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I don't either.
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You know, I
certainly appreciate,
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one thing I
appreciate about our church,
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the Seventh-day Adventist
church is that for the--
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we are very
deliberately a political.
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We don't take
positions on issues
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that are not related
to our core doctrines.
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We don't go out and
have astound by every time
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there's particular issue
going on and take a firm stands.
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Because as a
church our organization--
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our mantra or reason
for existing is evangelism,
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it's introducing--
yeah, it's introducing.
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It's not you know,
going in front of the camera
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and saying,
here's what we believe
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because that's our
church members believes.
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You know, we all come together
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as this
corporate body with the--
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you know, with similar believes.
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But we do not speak on behalf
of our individual consciousness
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and I really
appreciate that as a member.
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I know it can be
frustrating sometimes
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because if you as an individual
have a particular belief
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and you want your
church to stand behind you
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and have this back or whatever.
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And many times
again, if it's related
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to our belief
system and our doctrines
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then we do take firm stands.
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This is the moral principal.
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And moral principles, exactly.
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Of course the church
should has spoken at. Right.
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But you are right,
our church-- again,
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I need to qualify when
you say it's not political,
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it's not partisan. Exactly.
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You can't help
but being political.
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And I have to say
this because I am sure
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there's people
watching this program think,
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now they talk
about political things,
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of course it's political.
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Yes, partisan is correct.
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Can't avoid that but
we shouldn't be partisan.
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But what you are saying I
think is even true as well.
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The Adventist
church or any Christian
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or indeed I think
any religious faith,
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it's dangerous to be political.
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Jesus was quite polite
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that His solution
was another world.
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Absolutely. Is to
change individuals.
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So when a church is too involved
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politically even
if it's not partisan,
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I think it's sort of
skewed from the real emphasis
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of Christian
living, regeneration
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and preparation for,
for spiritual eternity.
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Right.
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Well, and that's why we see
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you know, very frequently
on here in the magazine
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we hear this idea
of the Christian nation
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and things like that.
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To me that's very
reminiscing of the disciples
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and them wanting to establish,
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you know, this
kingdom here on earth.
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I think you know,
several thousand years later
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we still sort of haven't learned
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as Christians, as
followers of Christ.
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That's the human tendency. Yeah.
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We are all Judah at a time.
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Now that was Judah's problem.
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Morally he turned
out to be a traitor.
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Yeah.
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But it's very obvious
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that Judah shared
this sort of assumption,
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the kingdom of heaven
now, you know, a kingdom.
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He want to have Jesus crowned.
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The story is fairly planned
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and Adventists have
dwelt on a little lot
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that after that triumphal entry
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that the crown
was offered to Jesus.
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Yes.
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And of course He turned it down,
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that was as He
said before Pilot,
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"My kingdom is
not of this world."
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Right. Amen.
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And that's a-- I am--
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and I am so happy
that that's the case.
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Yeah.
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Well, now because He also,
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Jesus made the comment again
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and close at that
time, he said, you know,
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"All that take up the
sword will die by the sword."
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So if you get too
hung up with this world,
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this world will chew
you up and spit you out.
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Absolutely.
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Christ kingdom is another order.
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Absolutely.
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So back then to Hobby Lobby
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and for a profit
business having rights,
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do you feel like
they should have no rights
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or do you think they
should have more rights
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than the individual or
where are you standing?
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No, I don't think they
should have more rights
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but we need to be careful,
they are not singled out
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and one of the courts
analyzed this in relation
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to the Religious
Freedom Restriction Act
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which is interesting.
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We often say that it's correctly
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that it been
declared on constitutional
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but not in valid for
the Federal Government.
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And so this is more relation
to how the Federal Government,
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look at
businesses, corporations.
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Right.
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And no, I don't
think they have more right
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but remember, the
Supreme Court have said
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that
corporations are individuals.
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Yeah.
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And yet--
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I've got to put my glasses
on to pick up my own notes
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but I noticed
that the Sixth Circuit
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said that, "A Roman Catholic
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manufacturing company in
Michigan is not a person."
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Well, that's interesting.
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Yes, I think so they
have set up a contradiction.
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Yeah.
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And certainly they
should not have rights
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greater than the individual.
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That's why I
said, the individual
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constant drive
should triumph the other.
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Right.
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And I think in a
secular environment
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we don't want even an individual
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but certainly a
business that sort of faceless,
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representing a
religious interest,
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we don't want it
having the ability to--
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and this is by force
or by mandate or you know
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by default to restrict
other people's choices.
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Right.
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Well, so and then if
we want to keep it on
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religious exemptions
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and the religious
freedom of a business
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but take it on to
the small business level
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and then move to the
same sex marriage debate
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and we're seeing
several situations were
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it's a wedding
cake designer or a--
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You opened up something we
can could spend a case on it
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and I really believe
that's where this is heading.
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Yeah.
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The Roman Catholics being
consistent on contraception
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and that's important
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but I think this is phase two,
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it's gonna be on
the gay marriage issue.
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Yeah.
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Well, it certainly is
an interesting discussion
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and like I said,
we're so grateful
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that this family that
runs this organization
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are so-- are such
passionate Christians,
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passionate
advocates for their believes
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and so we certainly
don't want to take anything
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away from that conversation
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or from those--
from their stands there.
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But it's an
interesting conversation
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as far as religious
freedom of an organization,
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of a-- for profit business
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and should those
rights triumph the rights
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of their individual employee.
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Often when talking of
the religious liberty leaders
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and
particularly lawyers involved
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in religious liberty affairs
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we get on to the discussions
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of where these
religious liberty extend.
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And almost invariably
they will say something like,
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well, you can't, you can't
yell fire in a crowded room.
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That's not allowed.
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There's a certain
level that's unacceptable.
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And in my view Hobby Lobby
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and the Roman Catholic churches
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claims that their religious
freedom are being restricted
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by the healthcare mandate.
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Well, I am not totally wrong,
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I at least fire
with the lower case
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if because in
reality there are huge
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religious liberty issues
at stake in the United States.
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There are huge religious liberty
tragedies at play in the world,
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not least in the Middle East
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where Christians are
being killed in large numbers.
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And while I wouldn't dismiss
these concerns of the individual
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and the business
feeling uncomfortable
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with being
required even to provide
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a certain care
that's inconsistent.
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We need to keep
things in perspective
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and not cold fire
where this merely kindling.
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With Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
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