Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Allen Reinach
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000234A
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00:23 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:25 This is the program that brings you news, views, 00:27 discussion, updates and analysis of religious liberty events 00:31 in the United States and around the world. 00:33 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty Magazine 00:37 and my guest on this program is Attorney Alan Reinach. 00:42 You're executive director of the-- 00:45 Church State Council 00:46 celebrating our 50th anniversary in 2014. 00:50 We worked very closely together. 00:55 I was gonna say I'm an Australian 00:57 but that's really a misleader, misleading thing. 01:00 I've lived most of my life in the United States. 01:02 But here, we're in the US, talking in that context 01:05 but let me invoke another country 01:08 the British parliamentary system. 01:11 I don't know about you but I love to listen to the BBC 01:14 and some of the question time in parliament 01:16 and the raucous, bantering and desperate comments 01:22 that sometimes come from the prime minister 01:23 are quite entertaining. 01:25 I haven't generally seen anything like that 01:28 in the United States, right? 01:29 Okay. But lately, a little bit. 01:32 Think back to-- I think it was 01:34 President Obama's first State of the Union message. 01:38 You remember that? 01:39 Yes, I remember, he stepped out of line of protocol. 01:44 It's usually very prim and proper in the United States, 01:46 and he took the time to rail against 01:49 a recent Supreme Court decision. 01:52 Okay. Citizens united. 01:54 Indeed. 01:55 I mean, that was quite out of character. 01:57 I can't remember anything quite like that. 01:58 They often get on a hobby horse 02:00 about the Cold War or whatever, are these presidents. 02:02 But to take a shot across the bow 02:05 domestic in this case domestic political situation, 02:08 the Supreme Court with something else. 02:10 And then Chief Justice Roberts grimaced 02:15 and was murmuring things and then later-- 02:17 There he is shaking his head. 02:18 Yeah, they went on the warpath so that in its own way 02:22 I think is untoward is any of the yelling and screaming 02:26 in the back bencher cooing and jabbering like apes in England. 02:31 The Supreme-- What's going on? 02:32 The Supreme Court decision that most if you ask Christians, 02:36 you know, what cases do you remember are notable cases, 02:41 they may say for example, Roe v. Wade 02:43 the case that legalized abortion but Citizens United 02:49 is probably the single worst case of the last century. 02:55 Why? 02:56 And the boldest departure from a previous understanding. 02:58 It essentially equates money and speech 03:02 in terms of the political process 03:05 and it gives, you know, the rights of a person-- 03:10 It said-- Personhood. 03:11 Didn't they say corporations are individuals too. 03:15 Well, for purposes of making campaign donations. 03:19 So, you know, now we have to wonder 03:21 when you go out and spend your money at the store 03:24 where a portion--you know, which political party 03:26 a portion of that's gonna go to support for which candidates, 03:30 because corporations are now virtually unrestrained. 03:35 Now Citizens United was the first of a couple of cases 03:40 there is one pending now before the court 03:42 that may go to next step. 03:43 Citizens United did not say that corporations can give or-- 03:50 to candidates directly, but the political action committees 03:55 that essentially support candidates 03:58 and for all intends and purposes 04:00 are directed by the candidates. 04:02 Right, and there's no cap on what they can spend 04:04 unlike wasn't it McCain-- who was his co-sponsor 04:09 on the McCain-Feingold. 04:11 McCain-Feingold, yeah. McCain-Feingold, years ago-- 04:13 Well, that's why it was struck down by Citizens United. 04:15 But there's still limits, you and I couldn't give 04:20 not the way political-- 04:21 That's the next, that's the next case it's likely to fall. 04:23 There's very, very low limit on what you can give 04:26 for a campaign contribution even if you're billionaire. 04:28 Right, but that's the next case it's coming along 04:31 and that's likely to fall. 04:33 So that essentially now we have government, 04:36 oh well, it was, the comedians quip that 04:41 it's finally true now that corporations or persons 04:44 and we have government of by and for the people. 04:47 Well, that's a-- I mean it's funny but it's sad. 04:50 That was Stephen Colbert's quip. 04:54 But it does have the ability to-- 04:57 the potential to subvert this perfect union. 05:01 Well, the idea that our elective officials 05:05 are responsive to their constituents 05:08 is less and less true when the corporations become 05:12 the single most significant part of campaign finance. 05:17 Now I don't claim, I mean sometimes in our discussions 05:20 we claim to be sort of in the mind box 05:23 of the Supreme Court justices. 05:25 I don't really-- how could I know what they think. 05:28 But it appears to me that is very often 05:30 they're very bookish types they study back 05:33 that in a perverse way they've come close to the principles 05:38 that underlay the founding of the United States. 05:41 You know that classic statement that we say 05:43 life liberty in the pursuit of happiness 05:46 was actually originally in-- Life, liberty and property. 05:49 Property. Yeah. 05:50 And I think, but I think it's very dangerous. 05:54 They're going back to origins 05:56 and are requiting political power 05:58 and the ultimate thing that this whole governance protects 06:02 is property and aggregations of property so they, 06:06 that's where they've gotten 06:07 this wonderful new respect for a corporation. 06:10 Look, if you want to go back to our founding fathers, 06:13 James Madison wrote later in life, 06:17 collection of thoughts about separation of church and state. 06:19 Detach memoranda. 06:20 Detach memoranda is what it's been come to be called 06:24 and in it he was very suspect of treating the church 06:31 as a corporate entity and the potential for the church 06:34 to gain money and power and property 06:37 because of its continued existence. 06:40 Which was the standard Protestant viewpoint? 06:42 Well, because you look at Catholicism. 06:45 That was the fight of the reformation 06:47 apart from doctrine that was hitting a nutshell. 06:49 Sure, so what's ironic about Madison's concerns 06:55 so long ago is how it has come true with respect 07:00 not to the religious corporation but the secular corporation 07:03 and just how much power 07:06 the corporate world has obtained in this country. 07:08 But in other discussions we've pointed out 07:10 that the individual is progressively losing 07:14 the right to stand up for their individual conscience. 07:18 There are larger issues and I even thrown in the-- 07:20 the common good and so on. 07:22 And so the Citizens United not the Bible-- 07:24 Oh. 07:25 Citizens United case, I think is just another part 07:30 of the dynamic hitting us away from the autonomy and rights 07:34 and conscience of the individual, its corporatism. 07:36 Well, you know, what's interesting 07:38 when you look and I want to bring this back to prophecy here 07:42 'cause that's really our purpose in criticizing 07:47 the global economy and the masters of it 07:51 is to see that the Bible actually has something to say, 07:55 in the last days. 07:57 There is--shall I put it, a counterfeit trinity 08:01 of the political powers, the economic powers 08:05 and the religious powers all embed together 08:09 and it's all gonna come crashing down 08:11 but not before the three together 08:14 unite to restrict liberty of conscience. 08:17 Yeah, read those texts 08:18 that we were looking at them a little early. 08:19 Well-- 08:20 I remember quoting a couple of these texts, 08:23 during the economic collapse of 2008. 08:27 James really talks of, you know, to me, 08:31 this is a forerunner of how, 08:33 we have virtual slave labor and child labor 08:37 producing our goods in South East Asia 08:40 while we want to go to our big buck stores 08:43 which I won't name, call out by name 08:46 but, you know, we want to buy cheap goods. 08:49 "Come now, you rich, weep and howl 08:51 for the miseries that are coming upon you. 08:53 Your riches have rotted, and your garments are moth-eaten. 08:57 Your gold and silver have corroded 08:59 and their corrosion will be evidence against you, 09:02 and will eat your flesh like fire. 09:05 You have laid up treasure in the last days." 09:08 So James clearly is-- this is end time, 09:11 "You've laid up treasure in the last days. 09:14 Behold the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, 09:18 which you kept back by fraud are crying out against you." 09:24 Capital has been very oppressive of labor. 09:28 We are destroying the middle class. 09:30 "And the cries of the harvesters 09:32 have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts. 09:35 You have lived on the earth in luxury and in self indulgence. 09:39 You have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter." 09:45 And James goes on again in the last days context, 09:49 "Be patient, therefore, brothers, 09:51 until the coming of the Lord." 09:53 Yeah. But so-- So that's one. 09:56 Economic inequality is a characteristic of our end time. 09:59 Oh, and we have the worst inequality of all that-- 10:02 There was the propellant incident, 10:03 this--wasn't it in Pakistan this no, in Bangladesh 10:08 this building collapsed 10:10 killing hundreds of these marginal workers. 10:12 And I can remember my wife is from Guatemala 10:16 going to a upscale shirt factory 10:19 there was a Yves Saint Laurent I think. 10:22 You know how much they pay 10:23 the owner of the factory to assemble a shirt? 10:26 Nothing. 35 cents a shirt. 10:28 Yeah, no. And he is doing well. 10:31 The facts are that the workers there are getting nothing. 10:34 Yeah, no, it's outrageous. 10:37 Revelation 18, 10:39 "The merchants of the earth weep and mourn for her, 10:42 since no one buys their cargo anymore." 10:46 And there's a--it goes on for verses about the collapse. 10:51 And they lamented in one hour. 10:52 This great-- One hour-- 10:54 Economic, edifice collapses. 10:56 Right. Babylon comes crashing down. 10:59 And it is for God, I think Babylon stands 11:01 for just the confusion of man's voice, 11:03 all of these false systems. 11:05 Well, we--but we have a three folded counterfeit trinity 11:08 the religious powers, the civil powers, 11:12 and the economic powers, all in this confused global order 11:17 if you will and very oppressive of the rights of individuals 11:22 and especially the rights of conscience 11:24 and religious freedom. 11:25 Yeah, what can Christians do about this? 11:28 I often had people when I explain religious liberty, 11:31 "What can we do about it?" 11:34 Probably not much, right? 11:35 But we certainly not called upon to be social revolutionaries 11:39 in the sense of taking up any sort of a vendetta 11:44 against authority and the system 11:47 but I think we do have a loud prophetic voice 11:50 and that we shouldn't suffer these things quietly, 11:52 we should speak true principles 11:56 against this developing construct. 11:58 Let me first of all say what we should not do. 12:01 We should not have an attitude of passivity and inevitability. 12:06 Oh, well, you know, the world's going to 12:10 hell in a hand basket there's nothing I can do about it 12:12 and not to vote and just to disengage. 12:16 We, you know, yes, the old saying goes, 12:20 you know, "Think global and act local." 12:23 So for starters we do need to pay attention 12:27 to what goes on in our own communities, 12:29 we need to participate, we need to provide leadership. 12:33 Revelation says, you know, God says, 12:36 I will destroy those who destroy the earth. 12:38 We need to examine our own lifestyles 12:42 and take baby steps maybe concrete 12:46 to have a less of an impact 12:49 on the economy, on the environment. 12:52 Don't you agree the baby steps are not, 12:53 because they will change the world 12:55 but the baby steps should be 12:56 because, we babies following Christ. 12:59 Well-- 13:00 We're called to follow and exemplify 13:04 Christian and Biblical principles 13:07 and it's really up to God 13:08 is to whether that will change the world or not 13:10 but we have to be changed, we have to act correctly. 13:12 We need to live thoughtful moral lives and to lead by example. 13:16 We can't just stop that. 13:17 I remember even I was a Seventh-day Adventist 13:20 leader in Australia 13:21 one of the publishing houses I worked there. 13:23 And his view was--we'll so gonna get on and achieve, 13:26 so I'm gonna irresponsibly borrow heavily here 13:28 because I'll never have to pay it back. 13:30 Back in the Reagan Era we had an energy interior secretary 13:36 by the name of James Watt who was an evangelic 13:39 I think he was a Pentecostal. 13:41 And-- I remember him. 13:43 And he was, he wanted to drill excessively 13:47 for oil off the coast of California 13:50 and to the environmental concerns he said, 13:52 you know, Jesus is coming soon, it doesn't matter. 13:55 Well, we're laughing about it but in another context 13:57 that's more than just a personal mistake. 14:00 That's part of the philosophy of the Devin Nunes. 14:03 It's a God given right to plunder the earth 14:06 because it's for ours to take. 14:09 But we are called to be stewards. 14:11 Right, it's different than stewardship rather. 14:16 The--you know, demonist is a control, 14:20 well, we are not given control, we're given custody, 14:22 is a difference. 14:25 We could continue but I think it's time for a break. 14:27 So we'll be back in a few minutes. 14:29 Please stay with us. |
Revised 2014-12-17