Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Allen Reinach
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000232B
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00:07 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:10 And before the break, 00:12 with guest Attorney Allen Reinach, 00:14 we were really getting into discussion of this, 00:17 the whole movement toward gay rights. 00:19 And, and--yeah, 00:21 there is a developing threat to Christian expression 00:24 but how it really shouldn't be, 00:26 it doesn't have to be, does it? 00:28 But it's certainly emerging that way. 00:30 Well, as of we said the legal structure now 00:34 favors gay rights over religious freedom. 00:36 That's very unfortunate. 00:37 Implications of that are really profound 00:40 especially for institutions. 00:42 So for example, can you imagine 00:45 in our society a white supremacists group 00:50 being permitted to operate a school 00:52 according to racist teachings? 00:55 So that they would only admit white students 00:58 and only hire white teachers. 01:01 What would happen the first time, 01:03 an Asian, a Latina, an African-American 01:06 applied to be a student or applied to be a teacher 01:09 and was rejected, they filed the lawsuit? 01:12 What happens is... 01:13 You're actually-- your point is correct. 01:16 Speaking facetiously, 01:17 Bob Jones came under that charge in 2000. 01:21 Well, but my point is this because 01:24 we are legally acquitting homosexuality and race, okay. 01:29 And so the status of religious institutions, 01:34 schools, hospitals, social service agencies, 01:37 adoption agencies, childcare centers, 01:41 you name it, nursing homes, 01:43 the status of religious institutions 01:46 that hold to traditional, 01:48 moral and biblical views of marriage, 01:50 whether they are Christians, Jewish, Muslim, 01:53 you name it, are going to be the functional equivalent 01:58 of Iron Nations of a white supremacist group 02:01 and we will only be permitted to operate institutions 02:05 if we will conform to the thought police 02:08 and agree with values that say 02:12 that homosexual conduct 02:16 is morally equivalent to heterosexual conduct. 02:19 It's a total clash of value systems 02:21 as a secular value system is really adapted, 02:24 not a secular neutrality, 02:26 but an active promulgation of account of viewpoint 02:31 that it doesn't accept from religion-- 02:32 It's a zero-sum game 02:34 and in the name of equality and-- 02:37 Which is anything but... 02:38 And inclusiveness, traditional values, 02:42 Christians are being excluded. 02:45 And along the way we get this nonsense. 02:47 I know my son and daughter 02:49 go to public schools in-- 02:53 And they're already being softened up the idea that, 02:56 maybe students might go to any bathroom that strikes them. 03:02 That's becoming law in California that schools-- 03:06 But I heard my son talking about it 03:07 the other day and I was surprised, 03:09 you know what, you know what's going on? 03:12 Whether it will happen? I hope not. But anyhow-- 03:16 Also they're gonna start putting urinals in the ladies room, 03:20 I mean you know there is a biological difference. 03:23 Well, it's not the way it was meant, 03:27 but it seems to me that 03:28 there is a protection of privacy in the constitution 03:31 and this distracts to that in the worst way. 03:32 And state constitutions have much more explicit 03:36 and extended protections for privacy. 03:40 There is no explicit mention of privacy 03:42 in United States Constitution, 03:45 but there are in most of our state constitutions. 03:47 Explicit but it's the protection of the individuals. Right. 03:50 Well, I can tell you one, the quartering, 03:53 I mean it's a privacy issue 03:54 the quartering of troops in private homes. 03:59 We've spoken of them and the main objection 04:01 to look through the war of independence. 04:03 What muddy is this and we need to at least allude to it. 04:08 Yes, it's more and more developing unfortunately, 04:12 at least the secular argument sees the church as recalcitrant 04:17 and it has to be forced into line 04:19 which compromises its own stand. 04:22 But many within Christian and other religious communities 04:27 themselves proponents of gay rights and gay. Sure. 04:31 So, it isn't just the case of the Adventist church let say, 04:36 it isn't just that we have this view 04:39 and you know we're not going to hire gays 04:44 or wouldn't like to because it's inconsistent, 04:47 not personal prejudice but it's inconsistent with the message 04:50 that we're teaching to our young children and so on. 04:52 But many already are revealing themselves 04:58 to have this moral viewpoint and are calling on these laws. 05:03 So I don't know the way around but we have to recognize, 05:06 this is a huge complication to the faith position. 05:11 And not all faiths speak the same way already. Sure. 05:14 Some, it doesn't matter 05:16 if ordaining homosexual priests and so on and priest, well-- 05:20 Clergy. 05:21 Well, there are, some are priests 05:23 but not Roman Catholic priests. Right. Openly. 05:27 But you know there are things happening 05:28 that I think are just going to, 05:30 you know, the marginal line is not 05:32 where we imagine it is, it's within. 05:35 Well, that's true but I think talking about 05:38 within the questions that many have been asking are 05:42 whether pastors are going to be required 05:45 to perform same sex marriages, 05:47 whether churches are going to be required 05:50 to allow same sex weddings in their churches. 05:55 And at least at present to me those represent 05:59 the farthest extension of the so called pendulum. 06:04 I think it's fairly unlikely that in America, 06:09 we're gonna get to the place where the laws compel clergy 06:13 to perform weddings that they cannot morally conduct. 06:16 I could think of one scenario right away, 06:18 it's not uncommon, certainly with, 06:21 even with Adventist churches but other denominations, 06:24 they have the church, they have the services 06:26 and they rent it out to another denomination. 06:29 In our case it'll be on Sunday, 06:30 we have our services on Saturday 06:32 and then they're on Sunday. Right. 06:33 What's going to happen when that other denomination 06:35 say performs the gay marriage 06:37 and we begin to say we object because it's our property. 06:39 What's going to happen is we'll terminate the lease. 06:45 You can't easily terminate the lease 06:46 for reasons like that, can you? 06:48 You can terminate, well, 06:49 the lease will expire typically here on, 06:52 anyway, the point-- 06:53 But that's a wrinkle that just occurred to me 06:55 because I'm sure that will happen. 06:57 Yeah, when the church is being used 07:00 by another denomination, of course, 07:02 they're free to and you know it's not immoral, 07:07 I don't know that it somehow reflects badly 07:11 on the property owner if somebody does something 07:14 you don't like when they're renting your property. 07:18 No, I think that-- 07:19 The bigger problem is what happens... 07:21 Educational institutions. 07:23 Adventist churches in Hawaii for example, 07:25 some of them have done 07:26 a thriving business in weddings. 07:29 The Japanese like to come over and rent churches 07:32 and do Hawaiian weddings. 07:33 Well, in that case it could be very problematic 07:37 if you are advertising to the public 07:41 that you're open and doing a wedding business, 07:43 then I think you probably are not going to be in a position 07:48 to refuse a same sex wedding. 07:50 Then you become subject to the public accommodations laws 07:54 if you're willing to run the business. 07:55 But there is a whole front on this 07:56 and we know from Canada where the gay rights 08:03 are far more advance, 08:04 I mean the government is aggressively 08:05 pushing it against really-- 08:06 Well, and religious freedom is far less protected there. 08:08 Yeah, and we know that there'll be pastors 08:11 that declare themselves to be gay 08:12 and have the church to let them go. 08:15 There are pastors that apply for employment 08:18 saying they're gay, there will be schools 08:22 that again gay students, gay teachers, 08:25 it's just almost endless, 08:27 the test both already existing members 08:30 and others wanting to be employed. 08:32 Now thankfully, here in the United States, 08:36 there is Hannah Tabor case 08:37 I believe a leg up for church prerogative with its employees 08:40 in its clearly defined church operations. 08:44 So the church can fire you 08:45 and I for no good reason, we're discriminated against-- 08:47 Don't give ideas to-- 08:48 Yeah, we don't-- we don't have any recourse-- 08:50 I'm not a Supreme Court. 08:53 But still whether that, even that will be a bulkhead, 08:59 watertight bulkhead against this, I'm not so sure. 09:00 The problem is with our schools and especially, 09:03 I mean one of the first battle is gonna be curriculum, 09:07 our graduate programs and social works, psychology, 09:10 the accrediting bodies. Absolutely. 09:12 Eventually may wake up and say if you don't conform 09:16 to the values of homosexuality being moral 09:21 and teach this in your programs, 09:24 then you will lose your accreditation. 09:27 And that will be a new development 09:28 to have accreditation as an issue 09:31 over whether we retain control with it. 09:32 Well, Jerry Powell sued the American Bar Association 09:37 for denying accreditation to the law school 09:40 there at Liberty University. 09:42 And what the court said was that the American Bar Association 09:47 can't be sued for religious discrimination 09:49 because it's not a state actor, even though you can't-- 09:53 They're empowered by the state. 09:54 They're empowered by the state. 09:56 Government organization. 09:57 Exactly. So that's a big issue. 09:59 So it's going to be clearly 10:01 some very dynamic ongoing issues with this. 10:03 We've just seen the beginning of it, 10:06 rather than the Supreme Court thing is not the end of it, 10:08 it's probably just one of the opening shots 10:10 in a culture war of sort. 10:12 It's hard to talk about the conflict between gay rights 10:15 and religious liberty without somehow coming across 10:18 as hostile to homosexuals, 10:21 but without being hostile the reality is, 10:24 this conflict between gay rights and religious freedom 10:27 is likely to define the future of religious freedom 10:30 and future court cases 10:32 from many, many years to come. 10:34 It's a very serious conflict and right now, 10:38 religious freedom is at the back of the civil rights buzz. 10:44 Religious freedom is so important. 10:47 Very few people realize that in some countries 10:49 where there is little religious freedom, 10:51 like Saudi Arabia for example, 10:54 it's actually the death penalty to change your religion. 10:57 They don't realize that because 10:59 very few people are killed there. 11:02 In the war on terrorism where 11:04 so many people are being surveilled 11:06 and the easy assumption by authorities gathering 11:09 innumerable reams of information on people 11:11 is that they are, perhaps up to something no good. 11:14 The end of that is a stultifying of freedom itself. 11:19 As in Saudi Arabia, few people dare to step outside the norm, 11:24 so in this global security that's developing, 11:27 very few people dare to think independently. 11:30 Very few people dare to adapt a religious viewpoint 11:33 that might come under suspicion. 11:35 The net affect is a restriction on civil liberty, 11:39 a restriction on religious freedom. 11:42 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2014-12-17