Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Allen Reinach
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000230B
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00:07 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:10 Before the break with guest Allen Reinach, 00:12 we were really getting into a discussion of Williams 00:13 and the Quakers and the whole Road Island 00:18 and the Puritan and-- Road Island was but you know, 00:22 the Puritans in Road Island. Right. 00:24 And I was trying to make a comment about the Quakers. 00:26 We think they-- that they have the image 00:28 of being totally passive and introspective. 00:30 They were the movers and the shakers 00:33 and the revolutionaries, in some ways 00:34 I could almost characterized them as the, as the subversive. 00:39 So the anarchist of their age because they were really 00:43 against formal organized religion. 00:45 Well, you know, how you treat 00:50 those who are the most unacceptable in your midst 00:54 is really the barometer 00:55 of whether you respect the rights of conscience, 00:58 the ones that you disagree within and hate the most. 01:03 But Williams had-- coming back to his ideas, 01:05 he had a very different idea of judgment. 01:08 You know, we've said that the Puritans felt 01:11 that it would be their unfaithfulness 01:12 that would reap them 01:13 the curses in the judgment of God. 01:17 But Williams view of judgment was different. 01:22 So he has this imagery of the church as a garden 01:26 protected by this wall or hedge 01:29 separating the garden of the church 01:31 from the wilderness of the state. 01:32 Now this is the viewpoint that call out Baptist 01:35 through much of the history between 01:38 and it's only relatively 01:39 recently that they have diverged on this. 01:41 Well, so his view was 01:44 that when that wall of separation is breached 01:48 and the wilderness of the state 01:51 is allowed to intrude as a corrupting influence 01:55 upon the garden of the church 01:57 then he mixes his imagery, his metaphors. 02:01 As all good preachers do. 02:03 The church is also symbolized by a candlestick. 02:06 He says that's when God will remove 02:08 the candlestick out of its place. 02:11 So he sees judgment as coming when church and state 02:16 are two closely mingled and associated 02:19 that the state is a corrupting influence on the church. 02:22 And it was that teaching that God him 02:25 booted out of Massachusetts. Now interesting-- 02:28 Now it was meant he was against the government. 02:30 He was threatening the integrity of the governing authority. 02:34 Well, remember Massachusetts 02:36 was in a precarious relationship with England 02:39 that was under Archbishop William Laud 02:42 and was very-- 02:43 Whose very existence precipitated 02:47 the Civil War in England? 02:49 And was persecuting the Puritans there. 02:52 Their whole existence as a civil and political society 02:55 in Massachusetts was very tenuous. 02:57 And so the idea that the government did not have 03:01 any role with respect to religion 03:04 was a very dangerous idea. 03:08 So I understand why the Puritans 03:10 from a practical standpoint were concerned 03:12 about what Williams was teaching. 03:13 Now it's one of my burdens. 03:14 And I need to throw it again because-- 03:18 I'm originally from Australia 03:20 but I studied most of my history here. 03:22 But I brought with me 03:23 already a little Australian English history. 03:25 And most people think history is just linear and it's not-- 03:29 it's linear chronologically but it's dangerous to see-- 03:32 it's been in especially in isolation. 03:34 You know, American history plummets throughout 03:37 the revolutionary war and we got it today. 03:40 There are other things happening at the same time. 03:43 And John Williams-- sorry Roger Williams-- 03:47 I'm thinking of the guitarist. 03:49 Roger Williams episode was happening at the same time 03:53 as that they were huge social and religious issues 03:56 in England that culminated 03:57 and you mentioned Archbishop Laud. 03:59 It was fear by the largely Puritan 04:02 and other non conformers religious community 04:05 that he was bringing in Roman Catholicism 04:08 to newly Protestant England 04:10 that eventually led parliament first to react to the king 04:13 and then the Puritans to enlist in their army 04:16 and there was a full blooded Civil War 04:19 that resulted in the Puritans and their allies 04:22 taking over government directly. 04:24 So what we're talking about-- sorry? 04:26 Regicide. Regicide. 04:29 Regicide, the death of the king. Right. 04:31 They killed the king and I've always said 04:33 that I believe that was a far more cataclysmic 04:35 and earthshaking development for Europe 04:38 than even the French Revolution. 04:40 The president beset in England to kill the Lord's anointed. 04:43 That's what it amounted to. 04:45 So as it came to head in England, 04:47 the same thing was here. 04:48 When you're dealing with Winthrop and the others, 04:50 they weren't just religious leaders, 04:52 they weren't just civil leaders. 04:54 They were proxies for God Himself. 04:57 So to question them, 04:58 you were challenging the whole cosmic order. 05:02 So that's a perfect prelude to where I want to go 05:04 and see the significance of the Puritans 05:08 and this battle with Roger Williams 05:10 to modern American society 05:12 because we're facing the same issues today. 05:14 And we also see it in the Prophecies of Revelation. 05:18 In Revelation 13 and 14 05:21 we have competing concepts of judgment. 05:27 In Revelation 14 Seventh-day Adventist take pride 05:31 in proclaiming the final message of judgment there. 05:37 "Fear God, give glory to Him 05:39 for the hour of His judgment has come 05:41 and worship Him who made heaven and earth, 05:43 the sea and the springs of water. 05:45 So prior to the coming of Christ, 05:47 there is a message of judgment 05:49 to go out that it's time for all to repent, 05:53 to make their lives right with God. 05:56 It's a time of judgment and to prepare their hearts 06:00 to stand before the judgments of pride. 06:01 It says the hour of His judgment 06:02 and we could have a whole program on judgment. 06:05 It doesn't mean the hour of His condemnation is at hand. 06:08 God is gonna set things right. 06:09 He's gonna adjudicate in this situation, this complication. 06:13 He's gonna-- elsewhere it says, 06:14 you know, like a two-way sword you cling between good and evil. 06:17 But in Revelation 13 06:20 there is a counterfeit message of judgment 06:24 where we talked about how-- 06:28 In a previous discussion we talked 06:31 about how worship will be enforced by law. 06:35 And those who do not conform 06:38 are blamed for the judgments of God. 06:41 Because next two angels deal with that. Right. 06:43 It would says, Babylon is fallen 06:46 and Babylon is not just religious, 06:47 it's his whole confused-- Well, in literal Babylon-- 06:50 They were just political system. 06:51 Yeah. Right. 06:53 It is a confused structure 06:56 where the government is in control. 06:58 It's mixing religion and secular agendas 07:00 and then the third angel-- 07:02 there's actual many angels in Revelation 14. 07:04 Sure. 07:05 But we define those-- we settle on those three. 07:07 And the third one, then it warns against joining with this system 07:13 that is imposing this religious conformity. 07:15 Right. 07:16 So the true message of judgment 07:20 in Revelation says, when church and state unite 07:23 and impose worship and punish people 07:26 who don't conform to this popular worship. 07:30 So that's Roger Williams 07:32 when the wall of separation is torn down 07:36 and the wilderness of the state 07:37 is allowed to intrude upon the church, 07:39 then you have the Mark of the Beast 07:42 and you have the Judgments of God, 07:44 but prior to the true message of judgment, 07:47 the counterfeit message 07:49 is if those who don't receive the Mark of the Beast 07:52 or the ones who are blamed for the judgments of God 07:55 and they are the ones who are out of harmony, 07:58 out of step and to be condemned, 08:00 properly condemned and subject to the death penalty. 08:02 And I think you're right about Roger Williams 08:04 that he had an in-time sense 08:09 because that was what was driving it in England. 08:12 They were the Ranters, they were the Levelers, 08:15 they were the Fifth Monarchy Men, 08:17 all of them and I don't have time to get into it, 08:19 but they were studying these prophecies 08:21 and they believed that it was all about to happen. 08:23 And because very... 08:28 I was gonna say Eurocentric 08:29 but it wasn't that, it was Anglocentric 08:31 and of course at the new world they were still Englishmen. 08:34 They believed it was them, 08:35 all concerned, their nation, their system. 08:38 So they were trying to sort it out 08:39 in anticipation of Christ imminent return. 08:42 Well, historian, John Barry 08:45 wrote a book about Roger Williams 08:47 subtitled "The Creation of the American Soul." 08:50 And I think his thesis 08:52 is an effective one that these strains 08:56 of the Puritans versus Roger Williams 08:59 is what has been with us ever since. 09:01 Absolutely. 09:02 And still defines the cultural war battles 09:05 that we face in reality today. 09:06 And in reality it was displaced from England. 09:08 They had the Civil War. 09:09 They set up a religious dictatorship of sorts. 09:13 They settled there but the immigrants, 09:15 the Puritans after it collapsed 09:16 they came here, it is unfinished business. 09:19 Well, from my perspective 09:21 when we look at the modern American political scene 09:24 and we look at the culture wars, 09:25 both the left and the right are really neo-Puritans 09:30 because both of them have 09:32 a very distinct moral and religious viewpoint 09:36 that they want to impose upon society. 09:39 You know, the left may emphasize equality, diversity, 09:42 the rights of same sex couples, 09:45 did I say the right, the left has that emphasis. 09:48 The right of course more theocratic perhaps, 09:52 emphasizing traditional, religious and moral values. 09:55 But each side competing 09:57 with their own Puritan agenda as it were 10:00 to impose having church and state collaborate together 10:05 and those who would articulate 10:08 the values of liberty of conscience 10:11 are few and far between. 10:17 In discussing religious freedom in America, 10:19 of course, we need to keep in mind, 10:21 it's antecedence in the old world. 10:23 But even in the new world it was hard one 10:26 and this principle of the separation 10:28 of church and state was not immediately self evident 10:32 to use Thomas Jefferson's term. 10:36 As we look at the Puritans in New England, 10:38 they were not inherently tolerant. 10:41 This was a repressive regime. 10:44 This was a regime that oppressed 10:47 Anne Hutchinson and the Quakers and others. 10:51 But it's worth remembering 10:53 that the conflicts that were fore through there-- 10:56 with Roger Williams and others, 10:58 laid the groundwork for a very clear understanding 11:01 of the separation of church and state 11:04 that informed the constitution 11:06 and has been part of American society 11:07 and its continuing protection of religious freedom ever since. 11:12 We must look at the lessons of history. 11:14 We must look at the instructions from scripture. 11:18 We must look at the model of faithful men and women 11:21 through the ages who stood for religious freedom 11:24 and realized that the United States can be, 11:27 should be and probably still is 11:30 a bastion, a remaining bastion 11:32 for religious freedom in the world. 11:35 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2014-12-17