Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
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Before the break
with guest Allen Reinach,
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we were really getting
into a discussion of Williams
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and the Quakers and
the whole Road Island
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and the Puritan and--
Road Island was but you know,
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the Puritans in
Road Island. Right.
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And I was trying to make
a comment about the Quakers.
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We think they--
that they have the image
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of being totally
passive and introspective.
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They were the
movers and the shakers
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and the
revolutionaries, in some ways
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I could almost characterized
them as the, as the subversive.
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So the anarchist of their
age because they were really
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against formal
organized religion.
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Well, you know, how you treat
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those who are the most
unacceptable in your midst
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is really the barometer
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of whether you respect
the rights of conscience,
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the ones that you disagree
within and hate the most.
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But Williams had--
coming back to his ideas,
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he had a very
different idea of judgment.
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You know, we've said
that the Puritans felt
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that it would be
their unfaithfulness
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that would reap them
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the curses in
the judgment of God.
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But Williams view of
judgment was different.
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So he has this imagery
of the church as a garden
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protected by this wall or hedge
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separating the
garden of the church
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from the
wilderness of the state.
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Now this is the
viewpoint that call out Baptist
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through much of
the history between
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and it's only relatively
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recently that they
have diverged on this.
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Well, so his view was
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that when that wall
of separation is breached
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and the wilderness of the state
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is allowed to intrude
as a corrupting influence
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upon the garden of the church
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then he mixes his
imagery, his metaphors.
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As all good preachers do.
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The church is also
symbolized by a candlestick.
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He says that's
when God will remove
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the candlestick
out of its place.
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So he sees judgment as
coming when church and state
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are two closely
mingled and associated
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that the state is a corrupting
influence on the church.
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And it was that
teaching that God him
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booted out of
Massachusetts. Now interesting--
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Now it was meant he
was against the government.
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He was threatening the integrity
of the governing authority.
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Well, remember Massachusetts
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was in a precarious
relationship with England
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that was under
Archbishop William Laud
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and was very--
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Whose very
existence precipitated
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the Civil War in England?
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And was
persecuting the Puritans there.
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Their whole existence as a
civil and political society
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in Massachusetts
was very tenuous.
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And so the idea that
the government did not have
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any role with
respect to religion
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was a very dangerous idea.
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So I understand why the Puritans
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from a practical
standpoint were concerned
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about what
Williams was teaching.
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Now it's one of my burdens.
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And I need to
throw it again because--
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I'm originally from Australia
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but I studied most
of my history here.
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But I brought with me
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already a little
Australian English history.
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And most people think history
is just linear and it's not--
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it's linear chronologically
but it's dangerous to see--
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it's been in
especially in isolation.
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You know, American
history plummets throughout
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the revolutionary
war and we got it today.
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There are other things
happening at the same time.
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And John Williams--
sorry Roger Williams--
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I'm thinking of the guitarist.
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Roger Williams episode
was happening at the same time
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as that they were huge
social and religious issues
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in England that culminated
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and you
mentioned Archbishop Laud.
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It was fear by
the largely Puritan
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and other non
conformers religious community
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that he was
bringing in Roman Catholicism
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to newly Protestant England
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that eventually led parliament
first to react to the king
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and then the Puritans
to enlist in their army
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and there was a
full blooded Civil War
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that resulted in the
Puritans and their allies
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taking over government directly.
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So what we're
talking about-- sorry?
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Regicide. Regicide.
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Regicide, the
death of the king. Right.
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They killed the
king and I've always said
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that I believe that
was a far more cataclysmic
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and earthshaking
development for Europe
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than even the French Revolution.
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The president beset in England
to kill the Lord's anointed.
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That's what it amounted to.
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So as it came
to head in England,
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the same thing was here.
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When you're dealing
with Winthrop and the others,
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they weren't just
religious leaders,
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they weren't just civil leaders.
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They were
proxies for God Himself.
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So to question them,
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you were challenging
the whole cosmic order.
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So that's a perfect
prelude to where I want to go
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and see the
significance of the Puritans
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and this battle
with Roger Williams
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to modern American society
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because we're facing
the same issues today.
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And we also see it in
the Prophecies of Revelation.
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In Revelation 13 and 14
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we have competing
concepts of judgment.
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In Revelation 14
Seventh-day Adventist take pride
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in proclaiming the final
message of judgment there.
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"Fear God, give glory to Him
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for the hour of
His judgment has come
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and worship Him who
made heaven and earth,
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the sea and the
springs of water.
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So prior to the
coming of Christ,
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there is a message of judgment
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to go out that it's
time for all to repent,
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to make their
lives right with God.
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It's a time of judgment
and to prepare their hearts
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to stand before
the judgments of pride.
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It says the hour of His judgment
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and we could have a
whole program on judgment.
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It doesn't mean the hour of
His condemnation is at hand.
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God is gonna set things right.
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He's gonna adjudicate in this
situation, this complication.
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He's gonna-- elsewhere it says,
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you know, like a two-way sword
you cling between good and evil.
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But in Revelation 13
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there is a
counterfeit message of judgment
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where we talked about how--
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In a previous
discussion we talked
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about how worship
will be enforced by law.
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And those who do not conform
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are blamed for
the judgments of God.
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Because next two
angels deal with that. Right.
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It would says, Babylon is fallen
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and Babylon is
not just religious,
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it's his whole confused--
Well, in literal Babylon--
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They were just political system.
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Yeah. Right.
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It is a confused structure
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where the
government is in control.
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It's mixing
religion and secular agendas
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and then the third angel--
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there's actual many
angels in Revelation 14.
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Sure.
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But we define those--
we settle on those three.
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And the third one, then it warns
against joining with this system
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that is imposing
this religious conformity.
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Right.
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So the true message of judgment
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in Revelation says,
when church and state unite
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and impose
worship and punish people
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who don't conform to
this popular worship.
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So that's Roger Williams
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when the wall of
separation is torn down
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and the wilderness of the state
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is allowed to
intrude upon the church,
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then you have
the Mark of the Beast
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and you have the
Judgments of God,
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but prior to the
true message of judgment,
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the counterfeit message
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is if those who don't
receive the Mark of the Beast
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or the ones who are
blamed for the judgments of God
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and they are the ones
who are out of harmony,
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out of step and to be condemned,
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properly condemned and
subject to the death penalty.
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And I think you're
right about Roger Williams
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that he had an in-time sense
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because that was what
was driving it in England.
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They were the Ranters,
they were the Levelers,
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they were the
Fifth Monarchy Men,
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all of them and I don't
have time to get into it,
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but they were
studying these prophecies
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and they believed that
it was all about to happen.
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And because very...
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I was gonna say Eurocentric
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but it wasn't
that, it was Anglocentric
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and of course at the new world
they were still Englishmen.
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They believed it was them,
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all concerned, their
nation, their system.
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So they were
trying to sort it out
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in anticipation of
Christ imminent return.
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Well, historian, John Barry
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wrote a book
about Roger Williams
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subtitled "The
Creation of the American Soul."
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And I think his thesis
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is an effective
one that these strains
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of the Puritans
versus Roger Williams
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is what has been
with us ever since.
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Absolutely.
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And still defines
the cultural war battles
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that we face in reality today.
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And in reality it was
displaced from England.
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They had the Civil War.
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They set up a
religious dictatorship of sorts.
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They settled there
but the immigrants,
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the Puritans after it collapsed
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they came here, it
is unfinished business.
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Well, from my perspective
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when we look at the
modern American political scene
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and we look at the culture wars,
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both the left and the
right are really neo-Puritans
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because both of them have
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a very distinct moral
and religious viewpoint
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that they want to
impose upon society.
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You know, the left may
emphasize equality, diversity,
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the rights of same sex couples,
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did I say the right,
the left has that emphasis.
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The right of course
more theocratic perhaps,
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emphasizing traditional,
religious and moral values.
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But each side competing
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with their own
Puritan agenda as it were
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to impose having church
and state collaborate together
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and those who would articulate
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the values of
liberty of conscience
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are few and far between.
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In discussing
religious freedom in America,
00:10:17.00\00:10:19.12
of course, we
need to keep in mind,
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it's antecedence
in the old world.
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But even in the new
world it was hard one
00:10:23.54\00:10:26.61
and this
principle of the separation
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of church and state was
not immediately self evident
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to use Thomas Jefferson's term.
00:10:32.31\00:10:34.67
As we look at the
Puritans in New England,
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they were not
inherently tolerant.
00:10:38.31\00:10:41.20
This was a repressive regime.
00:10:41.23\00:10:44.25
This was a regime that oppressed
00:10:44.28\00:10:47.58
Anne Hutchinson and
the Quakers and others.
00:10:47.61\00:10:51.62
But it's worth remembering
00:10:51.65\00:10:53.17
that the conflicts that
were fore through there--
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with Roger Williams and others,
00:10:56.55\00:10:58.48
laid the groundwork for
a very clear understanding
00:10:58.51\00:11:01.93
of the separation
of church and state
00:11:01.96\00:11:04.07
that informed the constitution
00:11:04.10\00:11:06.00
and has been part
of American society
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and its continuing protection
of religious freedom ever since.
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We must look at
the lessons of history.
00:11:12.40\00:11:14.82
We must look at the
instructions from scripture.
00:11:14.85\00:11:18.73
We must look at the
model of faithful men and women
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through the ages who
stood for religious freedom
00:11:21.83\00:11:24.69
and realized that
the United States can be,
00:11:24.72\00:11:27.76
should be and probably still is
00:11:27.79\00:11:30.28
a bastion, a remaining bastion
00:11:30.31\00:11:32.17
for religious
freedom in the world.
00:11:32.20\00:11:35.46
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:11:35.49\00:11:38.79