Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Allen Reinach
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000229A
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00:23 Welcome to the "Liberty Insider."
00:25 This is the program that brings you discussion, 00:27 analysis, news and in-depth reporting on religious liberty 00:32 in the United States and around the world. 00:35 My name is Lincoln Steed, Editor of Liberty Magazine 00:38 and my guest is Attorney Allen Reinach, 00:43 Executive Director of the Church State Council. 00:46 Glad to be with you, Lincoln. 00:47 I titled this program "Two Horns." 00:49 Yes, indeed. 00:51 Now, we are on the horns of a dilemma as a nation 00:55 internationally, as we record this program 00:58 the president of the United States 01:00 as he had already drawn a line in the sand on Syria 01:03 and someone stepped across it 01:05 and it look like something is going to happen. 01:07 As that looms I know many people in the United States, 01:11 many Christians are thinking prophecy. 01:14 The whole Middle East is so highly charged 01:17 and many evangelical Christians see prophetic significance 01:22 in the existence of Israel 01:23 and now necessity to support Israel. 01:27 What I think many of them miss 01:29 and you and I need to talk about this is well 01:31 they see American exceptionalism and God's favor on it. 01:35 They don't so easily see the role 01:37 of the United States itself in prophecy. 01:40 The Bible has a lot to say 01:41 about the United States doesn't it? 01:43 Once you accept the bit 01:46 particular based fitting this nation. 01:48 We as Seventh-day Adventists have uniquely I think 01:51 identified the second beast of Revelation 13 01:56 as the United States. 01:57 And there's a lot of good biblical reasons for that 02:00 which I don't think we have time to focus on this program. 02:04 Now there are many beasts in Daniel and Revelation. 02:07 But final--the final power, you know, this is the passage 02:11 it's this beast that brings the world 02:14 the infamous mark of the beast and 666 02:17 and a final round of persecution. 02:19 But there are things about the character of this nation 02:24 that are identified in this prophecy 02:26 and even I think most Seventh-day Adventists 02:28 who recognize America in prophecy here 02:31 fail to really consider the significance 02:35 of how its described in the passage. 02:38 Before you go into that significance 02:40 but let's revisit the beast 02:42 because people that are not particularly well, 02:45 literate is one word I could use them 02:47 Bible things but nor interested. 02:49 Who haven't studied the prophecies. 02:50 Yep, might not realize the, you know, 02:53 the link we make as Daniel 2 where there was an image 02:56 given in a dream to Nebuchadnezzar 02:58 divided by metals in that case not beasts 03:02 and Daniel was then told 03:04 what those kingdoms were. 03:06 And the kingdoms were then centralized 03:08 by beasts in other prophecies. 03:11 Then elsewhere he gives the succession of beasts 03:14 and their interpretation is essentially given. 03:17 Babylon, Greece, Persia, Greece, Rome, 03:20 all symbolized by ferocious beasts of different kinds. 03:24 Lion, bear-- 03:25 It's not a false interpretation to assign kingdoms to beasts. 03:29 Correct. 03:30 Then at the end of all of that sequence, 03:32 where presenter says another beast 03:34 remember rises out of the--of the land 03:40 which ironically is to be easily linked 03:44 to an un-people there because the sea is out of people. 03:46 Sea is a symbol for people. Sea is a symbol of peoples. 03:48 So, it talks of that-- about this beast 03:50 this two horned beast 03:51 a lamb like or a initially peaceful beast 03:55 that then becomes aggressive and it's relatively easy 03:58 in the sequence 'cause you know, one kingdom follows another 04:02 to see that this is the timeframe 04:04 for the rise of the United States 04:06 and then once you see that 04:07 It's very nature's describe very plainly in this prophecy. 04:11 So it's hardly it's not that everyone would 04:14 necessarily agree with us but it's hardly a stretch 04:17 to apply this beast to the United States. 04:20 Fair enough, but the thing I disagree with is the sequence 04:26 that the lamb describes are founding 04:29 Christ like peaceful, meek, mild etcetera., 04:33 protective of our rights 04:35 and the dragon describes something future. 04:38 The text of the passage and I have opened to it. 04:43 Then I saw, Revelation 13:11, 04:46 "Then I saw another beast rising out of the earth. 04:49 It had two horns like a lamb," 04:51 so that's in the past tense "and it spoke like a dragon." 04:55 Now the theologians tell me 04:57 that is a type of a perfect tense 05:00 that describes action that was not completed in the past. 05:03 It begun in the past 05:05 but it's continuing into the present. 05:08 And so what we have is this description is this tension 05:12 which I think if we start to think about it 05:15 in American history we have these wonderful ideals 05:19 of civil and religious freedom 05:22 very fitting description two horns like a lamb. 05:26 In the Bible the horn is a symbol of power. 05:29 And so we have we talked 05:31 about the separation of powers in our last show. 05:34 The separation of powers, 05:36 the protection for civil and religious freedom 05:38 because we protect against power becoming accumulated 05:43 in the tyranny of power. 05:44 Some other observers who tried to see in these two horns 05:47 the separation of church and state. 05:49 That's another part of the protection. 05:50 It's all reasonable analogies to draw. 05:52 Religious freedom, absolutely. 05:54 So it's these and if you think about it those who are familiar 05:59 with prophecy in the prophesies of Daniel Chapter 7 and 8 06:03 the power that dominated the west during the middle ages 06:07 was pictured as a single little horn 06:10 that consolidated civil and religious authority 06:14 and became a persecuting power I think the inquisition. 06:17 Here we have a separation 06:19 between civil and religious authority 06:22 protection for civil and religious freedom, 06:24 we have these marvelous principles of freedom 06:27 that have made the United States 06:28 a beacon of freedom to the world. 06:30 Underlying aggression from the beginning. 06:32 At the same time, can you think of any ethnic group 06:37 that has not been mistreated at some point 06:41 or another beginning with Native Americans 06:43 but there was a terrible Anti-Catholicism 06:47 going back to the early days 06:49 of course we had African slavery, 06:52 so we've had a problem there. 06:54 You know, I'm from-- I'm living in California, 06:57 we imported Chinese labors 06:58 who died by the thousands building the rail roads. 07:02 And we interned 07:03 we interned the Japanese during World War II. 07:06 This is and you're right 07:08 what American exceptionalism blinds people to is that, 07:12 that--this country or no country 07:15 is an exception to human nature 07:17 and human beings have the same tendencies. 07:20 The United States exemplified attitudes 07:23 at the times of its founding and the peoples that came in. 07:27 What I believe is the unique thing 07:28 and it's really the load star of Americanism 07:32 or the American state is the constitution. Right. 07:35 Which of course, was informed by progressive thinkers 07:37 religious and secular at that time 07:39 and so this stands up there as a guiding star 07:42 and we haven't yet blanked it out totally 07:45 but if you look just at the history of the United States 07:48 It's as imperfect as any country. 07:50 It's what we say is the United States 07:53 why should it be the policeman of the world, 07:54 we are a peaceful country, 07:56 this isolationist, this never been true. 07:58 The United States has never 08:00 practically speaking been isolationist. 08:02 It's always been expansionist. 08:04 You know, there are 50 states 08:05 so they spread over half the world. 08:09 You know, that's the nature of empowers 08:11 as it's become a latter day empower 08:13 but it still has this unique 08:15 universal aspect of freedom and rights 08:18 and of course bury within that 08:20 wonderful religious liberty sentiments 08:22 and we need to cling to that. 08:23 Well, and I think one of the key things 08:27 to think about in seeing the tension in our history 08:31 between the lamb and the dragon 08:33 between the wonderful values and principles that we espouse 08:37 and our failure to live up to them 08:40 is this whole concept of American civil religion 08:44 and what you mentioned American exceptionalism, 08:47 we have a blind spot as Americans. 08:50 We tend to have this idea 08:53 that God blesses America that God is on our side. 08:57 Automatically regardless of what we do. 08:58 And then we justify being the world's policeman 09:03 which sometimes becomes being the world's bully. 09:08 You know, projecting our power, 09:10 throwing our weight around internationally 09:12 and we are uncritical about whether that's really essential. 09:19 Now, Congress is going to debate 09:21 whether we should project American power into Syria. 09:25 And I don't have the answer to that question 09:27 but I'm glad that there is at least 09:28 going to be some discussion about it. 09:31 Which is the way it should operate, you know, 09:32 so often we hear about it on the news 09:34 and Congress lament that they had no part in it, 09:37 so the system at least is working. 09:39 but even the system is on some predicates 09:42 as you say from its very founding 09:46 there were some principles embedded in the Untied States 09:50 that can easily be used to be enforcing and dictatorial power 09:54 particularly on religious matters. 09:56 But I want to talk a little more about American exceptionalism 09:59 because I think that-- Some books written on that. 10:02 Of course, look, it's a given that we are exceptional 10:06 in our commitment to the wonderful values 10:09 of civil and religious freedom. 10:10 That's what makes us exceptional. 10:13 We are not exceptional when we fail to live up to them 10:17 but there is an inherent danger 10:20 and that is a danger from our civil religion 10:26 that we turn God into a tribal deity of the United States. 10:30 I like that. 10:31 And what I mean by a tribal deity, 10:34 all true religion whatever you call-- 10:36 Or a national icon. 10:38 All true religion is based on the premise 10:41 that God is sovereign and we as the creatures 10:45 as the created beings are in humble submission 10:48 to the will of the sovereign Creator God. 10:52 You know, there is a hierarchy, God is on top 10:55 and we are--you know, we are on the bottom. 10:58 All right, we are the creatures, He is the Creator. 11:02 Civil religion turns that formula upside down 11:05 and God becomes the instrument of national policy. 11:11 God as the, you know, 11:12 as the tribal deity of the United States 11:15 is invoked--you know politicians invoke His name 11:19 to bless their political aspirations to elected at office 11:25 and also to bless our national aspirations 11:28 as we project power into the global community. 11:32 Well, it's a little example that illustrates where this leads. 11:35 Couple of years ago it turned out that-- 11:37 that all of the gun sites 11:39 used in Afghanistan and Iraq had a Bible text. 11:42 John 3:16 on the Bible. 11:44 Next to the serial number, 11:45 well, it was told to the soldiers 11:47 who found out about it that these were holy weapons. 11:51 In extension of the state is religious thinking 11:53 and this just gets so muddled together. 11:56 But of course the structure you are describing 11:58 really existed in the Middle Ages 12:00 and in some ways that's what perhaps lies ahead of us. 12:04 This merging of church and state but in a more modern, 12:11 Well, I'm trying to avoid some of the words like-- 12:12 like some of these totalitarian powers 12:16 we saw at World War II. 12:17 But really technology is handing 12:19 that sort of statism to any dominant entity today. 12:23 Abraham Lincoln I think had a healthy attitude. 12:27 He was asked-- 12:28 Oh, nobody God didn't favor either. 12:30 He was asked whether God was on the side of the north 12:34 and his answer was you know 12:36 I don't know, I hope that we are on God's side. Yeah. 12:40 Well, elsewhere he said both sides 12:41 pray to God, he couldn't be on both sides. 12:43 Well, that was his second Inaugural Address 12:45 and if there is one thing I would comment 12:47 every American to reread regularly. 12:50 It's Lincoln second inaugural it is just a masterpiece. 12:54 Very humble document. Very humble. 12:56 And he had it absolutely-- 12:57 And biblically and prophetically dead on right. 13:02 Although he was not 13:03 a conventional Christian in any form. 13:07 No. in fact he was well read. 13:08 And I think he had his moral compass well sort out. 13:12 So the two horns-- 13:14 what this the latter activity of this entity do though. 13:19 Okay, so it says that we have these two horns 13:23 but then it says that it will exercise 13:26 or it exercises all the authority 13:29 of the first beast in its presence 13:32 and when it does that it says it makes the earth 13:36 and its inhabitance worship the first beast 13:41 whose mortal wound was healed. 13:43 So the time is coming when in repudiation 13:47 of the principles of the civil and religious freedom, 13:51 the two horns become one. 13:53 We exercise both civil and religious authority 13:56 and we enforce religious obligations. 14:00 We enforce worship, 14:03 that's the whole mark of the beast 14:05 I have the word worship underlined 14:07 repeatedly in this passage. 14:09 Those who would not worship 14:11 the image of the beast are to be slain. 14:14 So there is persecution and death penalty 14:17 for those who do not conform to the popular worship. 14:23 We need to take a break, we'll be right back 14:25 to continue this discussion of the two horn beast. |
Revised 2014-12-17