Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Grace Mackintosh
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000227A
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00:23 Welcome to Liberty Insider.
00:25 This is a program designed to bring you 00:27 news, views, discussion and up-to-date information 00:31 on religious liberty issues around the world. 00:33 My name is Lincoln Steed, Editor of Liberty Magazine. 00:37 And my guest on the program is Grace Mackintosh, 00:40 Director of Public Affairs and Religious Liberty 00:43 for the Seventh-day Adventist Church in Canada. 00:45 That's pretty long title. Thank you. 00:48 An implicit in that title as we-- 00:51 Seventh Day Adventist-- 00:52 I'm one too, we've been told 00:53 it's the name of that church Seventh-day Adventist. 00:58 We expect the soon return of Christ 01:00 for biblical and prophetic reasons 01:02 one and the same. 01:04 And the other part is we worship God on the seventh day 01:07 as the Bible in the Ten Commandments says. 01:10 But that's an item of some contention 01:13 in the modern world, isn't it, 01:14 in the modern Christian world? 01:16 As to which day in Sabbath 01:18 or if it's important to have a day-- 01:20 The word Sabbath people are comfortable with, 01:22 not everyone very familiar 01:23 but all-- all churches, 01:25 all theologians understand that Sabbath 01:27 but it means so many different things. 01:29 Sabbath has been turned into Sunday. 01:32 When many Protestants speak of Sabbath they mean Sunday, 01:36 but they use the same word, don't they? Yes. 01:39 So seventh day Sabbath needs to be spelled out. 01:42 I agree. 01:43 I remember in law school I had a friend who said to me 01:46 it doesn't matter what day you keep, 01:47 it could be Wednesday. 01:49 As long as you're keeping it to Lord, 01:51 He knows and He accepts the worship 01:55 that you're giving Him. 01:57 I wonder if his wife certainly 02:01 or even his children would be so impressed, 02:03 if he kept or remember their birthday 02:07 a month later rather in the day. 02:11 So that's sort of the key, I don't think it matter at all, 02:15 unless if God Himself had said another day 02:19 He could've said Wednesday, it's somewhat arbitrary, 02:24 God rested on that Sabbath day, 02:27 the seventh day and hallowed it. 02:29 It was God doing it. He made it memorial. 02:31 Yes, He did it on that day. 02:33 If He rested and made the memorial 02:35 on the next day, fine. 02:38 And it's been said that. 02:39 The point is that God hallowed it 02:41 not that it's any particular day of the week. 02:43 And it's been said that to designate another days 02:47 to make yourself a dummy God, 02:50 you know, you're taking that authority 02:52 to designate another day. 02:53 That's been said by some people, 02:56 what I remember and I shared it 02:57 on this program before 02:58 and I think it's the 1996 document 03:02 from Pope John Paul II, 03:04 Dominos Day about the Lord's day. 03:07 He gives a long exposition there on the day of worship 03:11 and the early part of it, he's quite, 03:16 I was gonna use the word honest 03:17 which is wrong because to imply dishonesty there 03:19 but he is very articulate in acknowledging 03:23 the seventh day was the Sabbath in the Bible 03:28 in old times as its presented 03:30 and he quotes those text, accepts it and discusses it. 03:33 But then there is a pivotal moment 03:35 where he says and this is a very slight paraphrase 03:38 because I don't have in front of me 03:39 but he said while the early Christians 03:41 had no direct command from their Lord, 03:45 they felt they had the authority to change the day. 03:50 He is very correct on that. Yes. 03:51 But it was done on a human authority 03:54 with certain assumptions that I think were wrong 03:57 and the one assumption is the risen Christ, 03:59 the new dispensation, they wanted, 04:01 they want of the rising instead of the creation. 04:04 But it was their assumption it was no command from God, 04:07 no logic from God, 04:09 no hint from the Old Testament, 04:11 nor that the risen Christ Himself 04:14 that the day should be changed. No. 04:16 So it was a human idea. 04:19 It was and I spend some time just mediating 04:23 or thinking on this in contrasting of the two days 04:28 and this Sabbath was set up as a memorial of creation 04:33 and creation is and indicia 04:36 or one of the things you would expect a God, 04:41 you know, from God 04:43 and so you have in this memorial of creation 04:47 the recognition of that God is a creator 04:53 and He's our creator. That's the intention, yes. 04:54 And you can't get away from His divinity, right. 05:00 And in the New Testament, 05:02 in the New Testament Paul says, 05:04 you know, God the Father and Jesus created the universe, 05:09 everything was created through Him, 05:10 the Father created everything through Jesus, so you can't-- 05:13 Sabbath is a memorial of creation not just a holy day. 05:15 Exactly and you can't get away 05:17 from the divinity of Christ. 05:19 When you keep the seventh day 05:22 but if you contrast that with the Sunday 05:25 which is a memorial of the resurrection, 05:29 well, as we were talking 05:31 before there were many resurrections, 05:34 that Moses was resurrected, 05:35 there were people resurrected 05:37 when Jesus was resurrected. 05:38 If you're just looking at Sunday, 05:41 you do not necessarily remember Christ as being divine. 05:46 Plus there is an interesting parallel 05:48 in another program 05:50 that you and I were discussing 05:52 secular leadings toward Sunday law, 05:58 logic of rest through social justice 06:00 and so on public good. Yes. 06:02 And the judges in Canada are ended in the U.S. 06:07 acknowledge that a parallels for religious concern 06:10 but it's not done for religious reason. Yes. 06:12 And we sort of see through it immediately. 06:15 The same thing has happened on the shift 06:16 from Saturday to Sunday from the very beginning, 06:20 the venerable day of the sun. What was that? 06:22 That was the, Pagan Day of Mithraism 06:24 and all the rest, 06:26 where, where pre Christian pagans 06:29 were literally worshiping the sun, 06:31 the resurrection, the sun coming up, 06:33 the great life giving power, 06:34 they're worshiping as Paul says 06:36 the elemental powers of the universe, 06:38 not a God, not a entity 06:40 but this, there were in over of this golden globe 06:43 that they believe itself was a God 06:46 and for Christians to say, well, it doesn't really matter. 06:50 They've just as the secularist 06:53 and we see through it 06:54 are picking on the baggage of a Christian day. 06:57 It doesn't matter because for this a secular-- 07:00 Not all Christians but the Christian church 07:03 that we've been through the middle ages 07:06 had latched on to a purely pagan day 07:09 calling it the sacred Sabbath. 07:11 So it's a doubly problematic. 07:14 It doesn't fulfill the real reason 07:16 of the day God designated 07:17 but it's all so extenuating a pagan concept, 07:20 the predated Christianity, why do that? 07:23 And in no way does it point to Jesus' divinity. No. 07:26 So you can remember the day, 07:28 you can think of the historical routes 07:32 or you can think of Christ's resurrection 07:34 but He couldn't just been a prophet 07:37 having been resurrected it doesn't-- 07:39 doesn't point to His divinity 07:41 and Adventist have a special understanding 07:46 of the conflict of the ages. 07:48 You know the war between Christ and Satan. 07:51 I do think in the modern Christian world. 07:56 I think Seventh-day Adventist yes, 07:58 have inherited one of the clearest visions of it. 08:01 I like to think that existed 08:04 even a few hundred years ago in protestant thinking 08:08 and you know, I even told you 08:10 and others on other occasions 08:12 that Milton's Paradise Lost, 08:15 really brings out the most war in heaven 08:18 on the great controversy. The great controversy. 08:20 It's not unique to Adventist 08:22 but we uniquely are carrying on that concept 08:25 and it's in the Bible, starts, 08:28 you know, with the creation of man 08:30 and the temptation from the serpent Lucifer, 08:34 there is a conflict and it needs to be resolved 08:36 correctly for the peace of the universe 08:38 and for the integrity of the Godhead. 08:40 And as we move into what we see our end times 08:44 in the fulfillment of revolution. 08:47 I look for themes 08:49 things that undermine the authority of God 08:53 and undermine the divinity of Christ 08:55 and as I see them converging 08:58 and coming together, 09:00 I more than ever appreciate 09:03 the understanding of the great controversy 09:05 and this war between Satan and Christ. Absolutely. 09:07 And we need to be watching 09:09 and speaking against these things 09:11 and call people's attention and lift up Christ. 09:16 All right, when you were talking about 09:17 that something occurred to me, 09:18 I connect disparate things in my mind, 09:20 that's the way my mind works, 09:22 but I like classical musical 09:25 what passes forward nowadays 09:26 and there's contemporary American composer 09:29 name Philip Glass, 09:31 and he's done some leading edge soundtracks 09:33 for films that have no dialogue 09:37 that just images of the modern world flipping by. 09:39 The first one was called Koyaanisqatsi. 09:42 And that was from Hopi Indian word 09:44 about life out of balance 09:46 and it showed modernity just rushing toward 09:49 the precipice basically, very powerful. 09:51 But one of the latest ones that he did. 09:54 And I wish I could remember the Indian word, 09:55 but it was a word not but quite this, 09:58 but something like that and its meaning was 10:00 state of perpetual war. 10:03 And that used modern images 10:06 lot of them from television 10:07 to underline it so visually obvious 10:10 that 21st century life all the technological progress 10:14 and the debates in society, the wars, the riots in there. 10:19 We've become like Satan himself 10:22 restless, restless and unsettled 10:25 and divisive and contentious 10:27 and this is literally what humanity has inherited 10:31 by departing from God, 10:32 there is no question and in the middle of that, 10:34 Sabbath rest a time not just to stop activity 10:39 which the secular world wants to do 10:41 with the family day of rest 10:42 but stop and spiritually rest 10:45 to get out of your mind all of the-- 10:47 the patterns of human behavior, 10:49 which is at odds with free spirituality. 10:52 That's a very profound thought. 10:54 And the idea that you can legislate morality, 10:59 that's religious morality, 11:01 we obviously legislate morality 11:03 in how we treat each other, it is civil morality. 11:06 This is profound but again you know, 11:08 that's that classic moment in the New Testament 11:11 where Jesus walks toward His followers in the storm 11:16 you know, the Bible also says the rest-- 11:18 the wicked are like restless sea 11:21 and the storms makes the disciple 11:25 so afraid that he stand-- 11:27 Jesus stands up and He says peace be still. 11:29 On the word He could count it, 11:31 but legislators can't do that. No. 11:33 They can't mandate peace. They can't mandate rest. 11:37 Rest is not cessation of activity, 11:39 rest we all know that. 11:42 You know, when I'm over worked in that, 11:43 I can I lie down and my mind is going like this 11:45 and my body is pumping and I can wake up 11:47 more tired than I went to sleep. 11:49 True rest, it comes from spiritual state of mind, 11:53 the change. Absolutely. 11:55 And the Sabbath again is designed to accomplish that. 11:58 And legislating doesn't create new citizens. 12:02 It creates a class of hypocrites. 12:06 If you're dealing with morality. Yes. 12:07 Yeah, because I don't believe 12:11 civil governance is designed for that 12:13 or at least just not good for it 12:15 and it doesn't need that. No. 12:17 Civil legislation, 12:19 the compliances all that it needs 12:21 because it's dealing with moving the pieces around 12:25 to enable the structure of human interaction 12:30 in daily dynamic, right? 12:32 Am I right, you're the lawyer? 12:34 I don't know what, 12:36 what philosophy they take always 12:37 but it has to be some of that they surely, 12:39 lawyers are not told 12:40 what you can morally change society through laws. 12:44 That's not the goal, I mean it might be 12:45 the byproduct on odd occasions 12:47 but it's not what its concern with. 12:48 Linc, they think do ask the question 12:50 which comes first the chicken or the egg. 12:52 I think they do ask that question 12:54 but the authority of governor 12:55 with respect to legislating morality 12:57 is civil morality. 13:00 If you lend me money 13:02 the state makes me pay it back. 13:04 How I treat you 13:05 but it doesn't have anything to do 13:07 with my obligations to God. 13:09 And normally at least till post 9/11 13:12 government is not much concerned about 13:14 what you're thinking when you do that act. 13:16 If you obey the law that's what they want, 13:20 whether in your mind you're thinking, 13:21 you know, it's crazy law or whatever, 13:23 I wish I didn't have to do it, 13:25 no, if it doesn't get. 13:26 The closest I can think of it is-- 13:28 is in court maybe you get for contempt of court 13:31 if you speak badly to the judge. Yes. 13:34 But normally law as it concern with wrote compliance. 13:41 Well, this is probably a good time to take a break 13:46 interesting discussion that we'll get more particular on 13:48 when we talk about the Sabbath, 13:50 a day of divine rest. 13:51 Stay with us, we will be back shortly. |
Revised 2014-12-17