Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
00:00:07.42\00:00:09.75
Before the break I was
talking with Grace Mackintosh
00:00:09.78\00:00:13.29
about Canada and some
of the legal cases there
00:00:13.32\00:00:17.05
and what that means
00:00:17.08\00:00:18.25
particularly for
recipient of Sunday Laws, right.
00:00:18.28\00:00:21.74
Where do we go from here?
00:00:21.77\00:00:23.53
What can be pick up the stories
are another legal case that--
00:00:23.56\00:00:25.74
Oh, it's interesting.
00:00:25.77\00:00:27.79
The United States has considered
the issue of Sunday Laws
00:00:27.82\00:00:30.93
at the state level
not a federal Sunday Law.
00:00:30.96\00:00:33.86
And there were four cases
that went through the courts
00:00:33.89\00:00:38.01
and through the Warren, what's
referred to is the Warren Court.
00:00:38.04\00:00:41.85
Earl Warren was
the chief justice.
00:00:41.88\00:00:43.61
Yes, in the early 1960s
and they considered four cases,
00:00:43.64\00:00:50.74
considering state Sunday laws
00:00:50.77\00:00:52.79
and all four of
the cases they said,
00:00:52.82\00:00:55.29
the state Sunday Law is not in
violation of the constitution.
00:00:55.32\00:01:00.12
And the reasons that they
gave are very interesting.
00:01:00.15\00:01:05.21
For example, the court writes.
00:01:05.24\00:01:11.20
The court writes "Consequently,
00:01:11.24\00:01:12.78
it cannot
expected, much less required,
00:01:12.81\00:01:15.00
that legislators enact
no law regulating conduct
00:01:15.03\00:01:18.08
that may in someway result
in an economic disadvantage
00:01:18.11\00:01:21.36
to some religious
sects and not to others
00:01:21.39\00:01:23.49
because of the special
practices of various religions.
00:01:23.52\00:01:26.24
We do not believe that such
an effect is an absolute test
00:01:26.27\00:01:29.96
for determining whether
the legislation violates
00:01:29.99\00:01:32.86
the freedom of religion
00:01:32.89\00:01:34.05
protected by
the first amendment.
00:01:34.08\00:01:36.34
Of course, to hold unassailable
00:01:36.37\00:01:38.97
all legislation
regulating conduct
00:01:39.00\00:01:41.26
which imposes
solely and indirect burden
00:01:41.29\00:01:43.82
on the observance of religion
00:01:43.85\00:01:45.44
would be a gross
oversimplification.
00:01:45.47\00:01:47.58
If the purpose or effect of law
00:01:47.61\00:01:49.76
is to impede the observance
of one of all religions
00:01:49.79\00:01:52.57
where is to discriminate
invidiously between religions,
00:01:52.60\00:01:55.83
that law is constitutionally
invalid even though
00:01:55.86\00:01:58.81
the burden may be characterized
as being only indirect.
00:01:58.84\00:02:02.43
But if the State
regulates conduct
00:02:02.46\00:02:05.45
by enacting a
general law within its power
00:02:05.48\00:02:08.00
the purpose in fact of which
00:02:08.03\00:02:09.85
is to advance the
States secular goals,
00:02:09.88\00:02:14.33
the state is valid
or the statute, "sorry"
00:02:14.36\00:02:17.37
is valid despite its indirect
burden on religious observance
00:02:17.40\00:02:20.70
unless the state may
accomplish its purpose by means
00:02:20.73\00:02:23.90
which do not
impose such a burden."
00:02:23.93\00:02:25.63
And then the
State gives the reasons
00:02:25.66\00:02:29.17
why these further
their secular goals.
00:02:29.20\00:02:33.10
"As we pointed out
in McGowan vs Maryland,
00:02:33.13\00:02:35.97
we cannot find a
state without power
00:02:36.00\00:02:38.25
to provide a weekly
respite from all labor
00:02:38.28\00:02:40.80
and at the same time
to set one day of the week
00:02:40.83\00:02:43.31
apart from the
others as the day of rest,
00:02:43.34\00:02:45.57
repose,
recreation and tranquility--
00:02:45.60\00:02:48.00
a day when the hectic tempo
of every day existence ceases
00:02:48.03\00:02:51.83
and the more pleasant
atmosphere is created.
00:02:51.86\00:02:54.36
A day which all members
of the family and community
00:02:54.39\00:02:57.06
have the opportunity to
spend and enjoy together,
00:02:57.09\00:02:59.96
a day on which people may
visit friends and relatives
00:02:59.99\00:03:02.55
who are not
available during working days.
00:03:02.58\00:03:05.02
A day when the weekly
labor may be regenerate himself.
00:03:05.05\00:03:08.52
This is particularly
true in this day and age
00:03:08.55\00:03:11.63
of increasing state concern with
public welfare legislation."
00:03:11.66\00:03:16.58
How interesting it is that.
And this is back in the 60s?
00:03:16.61\00:03:19.31
This is in the
early 60s. Incredible.
00:03:19.34\00:03:22.59
More recently Antonin
Scalia on two occasions
00:03:22.62\00:03:26.11
that I can remember has spoken
I think once a year, right,
00:03:26.14\00:03:30.42
on blue laws
saying the same things.
00:03:30.45\00:03:33.16
That these are not automatically
improper to state can pass them.
00:03:33.19\00:03:40.37
But even as you read that
00:03:40.40\00:03:41.91
again its sort of convenience
self serving fiction.
00:03:41.94\00:03:44.83
You're talking about
the day that's historically
00:03:44.86\00:03:48.19
and in
Christianity as it's existed
00:03:48.22\00:03:51.68
since departed
from the Jewish Sabbath
00:03:51.71\00:03:54.31
or the Ten Commandments Sabbath
that the Jews still keep.
00:03:54.34\00:03:58.19
You know, that's a day
of religious significance.
00:03:58.22\00:04:01.09
So they're talking secularity
00:04:01.12\00:04:02.81
but it's really to
uphold a religious norm.
00:04:02.84\00:04:06.58
And what I read in the
decision it's something
00:04:06.61\00:04:08.56
a step further than what is in
the Canadian cases which is that
00:04:08.59\00:04:14.16
oh, well, it might have
a religious significance
00:04:14.19\00:04:16.63
and it might have
religious repercussions
00:04:16.66\00:04:18.87
but because it's
furthering a secular goal
00:04:18.90\00:04:23.33
we can legislate it. Yeah.
00:04:23.36\00:04:25.26
So this thinking
will link very nicely
00:04:25.29\00:04:27.75
with the European
initiative at the moment
00:04:27.78\00:04:30.20
to have this family day of rest
for a secular purpose on Sunday.
00:04:30.23\00:04:34.73
That's very interesting
that you brought that up.
00:04:34.76\00:04:38.14
And last year in
2012 on March the 04
00:04:38.17\00:04:43.86
there was a march for sunday.
00:04:43.89\00:04:46.16
And it was a movement there
were labor unions involved.
00:04:46.19\00:04:50.98
And this was in
Europe? Church--in Europe.
00:04:51.01\00:04:52.99
Church representatives involved
of all different religions
00:04:53.02\00:04:57.86
and they were involved in
several different countries.
00:04:57.89\00:05:00.83
At least 12-15
different countries
00:05:00.86\00:05:04.05
and they all had
responsibilities.
00:05:04.08\00:05:06.69
Here is the list of
actions all over Europe
00:05:06.72\00:05:09.01
and this is
available on the internet.
00:05:09.04\00:05:12.35
So, Austria they were on a fact
finding mission in the streets.
00:05:12.38\00:05:16.48
They had a press conference
00:05:16.51\00:05:17.68
on the 5th of March
in a media campaign,
00:05:17.71\00:05:20.34
an another press release
on March the 4th Belgium,
00:05:20.37\00:05:24.54
they were going
to produce a poster
00:05:24.57\00:05:27.34
and distribute leaflets
to trade union delegates
00:05:27.37\00:05:30.27
to be posted in shops and
relaunch a website on the topic
00:05:30.30\00:05:33.97
and I won't go
into all the details
00:05:34.00\00:05:35.73
but I'll name the countries.
00:05:35.76\00:05:38.02
Croatia, Bosnia,
the Czech Republic,
00:05:38.05\00:05:43.71
Hungary, Italy,
Germany, Poland, Romania,
00:05:43.74\00:05:49.43
the Slovakian Republic,
Switzerland and Greece.
00:05:49.46\00:05:55.47
That's a lot of countries
involved in this infringement.
00:05:55.50\00:05:59.42
France is not
on that list right.
00:05:59.45\00:06:00.98
I don't see it right now.
00:06:01.01\00:06:04.17
But it was-- it did participate.
00:06:04.20\00:06:07.83
That might be--
here it is France.
00:06:07.86\00:06:09.95
And in France they
had internal meetings
00:06:09.98\00:06:13.03
with members on the
issue dispatching of leaflets.
00:06:13.06\00:06:15.61
They had press releases,
00:06:15.64\00:06:16.97
communication
campaign with other unions
00:06:17.00\00:06:19.66
and the meeting of
all political groups.
00:06:19.69\00:06:22.53
Well we should, you know,
00:06:22.56\00:06:24.44
on one hand we
shouldn't over sell this.
00:06:24.47\00:06:26.53
Even if it is approved
from what Seventh-day Adventist
00:06:26.56\00:06:30.13
and other Bible
students have seen,
00:06:30.16\00:06:31.98
this wouldn't
qualify as a repressive
00:06:32.01\00:06:37.14
Sunday type legislation
would persecute people of faith
00:06:37.17\00:06:40.71
but it could be
the harbinger of it,
00:06:40.74\00:06:44.33
the early sign, don't think?
00:06:44.36\00:06:47.13
I see it as a pilot. Yes.
00:06:47.16\00:06:49.00
Working out all
the kings-- Absolutely.
00:06:49.03\00:06:51.09
And on the other side I wouldn't
short change this at all.
00:06:51.12\00:06:53.58
This is a very
significant development
00:06:53.61\00:06:55.70
and I hadn't realized until
our discussion on this program
00:06:55.73\00:06:59.06
the antecedent in the US court.
00:06:59.09\00:07:02.82
Same sort of
language, same sort of logic
00:07:02.85\00:07:04.86
and its bearing fruit now in
this call for a secular Sunday,
00:07:04.89\00:07:09.10
day of rest, family day of rest
00:07:09.13\00:07:11.47
and of course, it has the full
backing of the major churches.
00:07:11.50\00:07:15.95
And they got perfect cover
00:07:15.98\00:07:17.44
because they say this
is not their initiative.
00:07:17.47\00:07:19.92
It's not for religious
reason but the religions wanted.
00:07:19.95\00:07:24.11
So, you know, who will
speak against such a thing?
00:07:24.14\00:07:27.41
It has to be done carefully
00:07:27.44\00:07:28.74
because it does seem in
the public good, doesn't it?
00:07:28.77\00:07:31.80
I mean it's on the
face of it innocuous.
00:07:31.83\00:07:35.29
That's right and it just reminds
me of the wording in Brownfield.
00:07:35.32\00:07:40.38
If so, what If it's
got religious significance,
00:07:40.41\00:07:44.14
if it's furthering
goals for the community
00:07:44.17\00:07:47.94
and the secular
goals for the government.
00:07:47.97\00:07:50.57
There is nothing that prevents
the legislation of that.
00:07:50.60\00:07:55.14
Now you know we don't know
how it will be administered
00:07:55.17\00:07:59.91
but its uncannily
familiar in some of it outline
00:07:59.94\00:08:03.15
to what long existed in
the US with these blue laws.
00:08:03.18\00:08:06.38
And I just have
vivid pictures in my mind
00:08:06.41\00:08:09.41
of in the early days of the
Seventh-day Adventist church
00:08:09.44\00:08:13.04
around the turn
of the last century.
00:08:13.07\00:08:16.20
Seventh-day
Adventists where fined regularly
00:08:16.23\00:08:20.18
and the number
of them imprisoned
00:08:20.21\00:08:22.39
on chain gangs for several
days and months on occasions
00:08:22.42\00:08:26.89
for breaking such laws.
00:08:26.92\00:08:28.60
So these very quickly turn
00:08:28.63\00:08:30.98
into cohesive and abusive
religiously inclined laws.
00:08:31.01\00:08:35.06
Very impressive, I actually
have the picture on my iPad.
00:08:35.09\00:08:39.50
I'm not finding them
very well at the moment.
00:08:39.53\00:08:42.05
But it's a
picture of a chain gang.
00:08:42.08\00:08:44.25
And everyone in the
picture except the one person
00:08:44.28\00:08:47.74
was the Seventh-day Adventist
00:08:47.77\00:08:49.03
and many other more pastors.
00:08:49.06\00:08:50.93
Yeah, I remember
when we're living in Idaho
00:08:50.96\00:08:54.19
going to the
Snake River Stampede.
00:08:54.22\00:08:56.57
Small town but big
crowd in the stampede--
00:08:56.60\00:08:59.93
on the stampede grounds
00:08:59.96\00:09:01.43
and in the break when
they went cattle wrestling.
00:09:01.46\00:09:07.08
The prisoners
from the local jail
00:09:07.11\00:09:09.36
would come out in uniforms
and clean up the droppings
00:09:09.39\00:09:12.69
and smooth the
saw dust and so on.
00:09:12.72\00:09:15.25
And I always
thought they've been put up
00:09:15.28\00:09:17.42
for the public
ridicule for minor crimes.
00:09:17.45\00:09:20.11
And the greater punishment was
00:09:20.14\00:09:22.28
not the imprisonment
for a couple of days
00:09:22.31\00:09:23.90
it was to be shown before
they appease as a scuffle law.
00:09:23.93\00:09:27.97
Pretty good incentive
I think not to do that.
00:09:28.00\00:09:30.34
But if you were in there
for a matter of principle,
00:09:30.37\00:09:32.98
a matter of religious conviction
00:09:33.01\00:09:34.88
I think that would be a
very dangerous sort of dynamic
00:09:34.91\00:09:38.85
to expose a person of faith too.
00:09:38.88\00:09:40.68
And that would
probably happen on a Sunday Law
00:09:40.71\00:09:43.92
that was put in place.
00:09:43.95\00:09:46.38
And ironically
perhaps on the day
00:09:46.41\00:09:49.72
that they would want
to keep be faithful on.
00:09:49.75\00:09:54.09
You know that would be
the ultimate punishment.
00:09:54.12\00:09:55.33
They've lost the
liberty here on Sabbath.
00:09:55.36\00:09:57.87
They forced to clean
streets in front of their peers.
00:09:57.90\00:10:00.42
And we already hear
this kind of rederick
00:10:00.45\00:10:03.96
who wants to be against family?
00:10:03.99\00:10:06.13
Who is against defending those
00:10:06.16\00:10:08.41
who have no
union to defend them?
00:10:08.44\00:10:10.75
Or those who aren't educated
or unskilled laborers or women
00:10:10.78\00:10:15.33
who wants to be seen
as being against that?
00:10:15.36\00:10:17.69
There is already a
chilling effect on someone
00:10:17.72\00:10:20.56
who would disagree with
such an action in protection.
00:10:20.59\00:10:23.93
The United States correctly sees
itself as a historic destination
00:10:27.12\00:10:32.71
for those seeking
refuge from oppression
00:10:32.74\00:10:35.37
and in particular
religious oppression.
00:10:35.40\00:10:38.59
Although it's worth remembering
00:10:38.62\00:10:40.06
but other
countries have functions
00:10:40.09\00:10:41.61
somewhat that same way too.
00:10:41.64\00:10:43.66
Canada was a
destination for hugeness
00:10:43.69\00:10:46.52
fleeing persecution in France.
00:10:46.55\00:10:49.71
Canada too,
during the Indian wars
00:10:49.74\00:10:51.85
in the United States was
the destination of desperation
00:10:51.88\00:10:55.25
as their whole travel group seek
sought to evade the soldiers
00:10:55.28\00:11:01.60
and make their way inexorably
00:11:01.63\00:11:03.83
and often
hopelessly toward the border.
00:11:03.86\00:11:06.16
But if they could
make it they would be safe.
00:11:06.19\00:11:08.52
It sounds rather ironic
00:11:08.55\00:11:10.24
but today, when we
talk about religious liberty
00:11:10.27\00:11:12.74
and some elements
of true social justice.
00:11:12.77\00:11:15.50
The secularity and
the secular equalizers
00:11:15.53\00:11:19.45
that have taken route in Canada
00:11:19.48\00:11:21.06
often have turned
things on their heads
00:11:21.09\00:11:23.09
and people of faith are finding
that secularity is sometimes
00:11:23.12\00:11:28.47
the enemy of
religious expression.
00:11:28.50\00:11:31.70
This should not just be an irony
00:11:31.73\00:11:34.12
it should be something
that is dispensed with.
00:11:34.15\00:11:36.77
And the true
justice and true refuge
00:11:36.80\00:11:38.99
returned to that
land of the maple leaf.
00:11:39.02\00:11:41.58
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:11:41.61\00:11:46.69