Welcome to the
"Liberty Insider."
00:00:22.85\00:00:24.68
This is a program
that brings you news
00:00:24.71\00:00:26.22
views, information,
discussion and up to date
00:00:26.25\00:00:29.43
date analyses of religious
liberty events around the world
00:00:29.46\00:00:32.15
and in today's
world, a changing world.
00:00:32.18\00:00:34.94
My name is Lincoln Steed,
Editor of Liberty Magazine.
00:00:34.97\00:00:38.00
And my guest on the
program Grace Mackintosh,
00:00:38.03\00:00:40.92
Director of Public
Affairs and Religious Liberty
00:00:40.95\00:00:43.41
for the Seventh-day Adventist
Church in Canada and a lawyer.
00:00:43.44\00:00:46.09
It seems like being a
lawyer is a great help
00:00:46.12\00:00:49.39
to discussing religious liberty.
00:00:49.42\00:00:50.95
It shouldn't be
necessary but I think
00:00:50.98\00:00:53.90
in the United States and Canada
00:00:53.93\00:00:55.54
so many of these issues have
a legal dimension, don't they?
00:00:55.57\00:00:58.48
Yes. And on that vine
00:00:58.51\00:01:02.02
since you're dealing
with religious liberty
00:01:02.05\00:01:04.78
for the church in Canada
are there any recent cases
00:01:04.81\00:01:08.80
that you would like to
share with our viewers?
00:01:08.83\00:01:11.26
Because I'm sure each of these
gives you a sort of a different
00:01:11.29\00:01:14.51
twist on the real
world dynamic of protecting
00:01:14.54\00:01:18.05
and practicing faith in Canada.
00:01:18.08\00:01:20.17
Well, I like to start
with two cases that I think
00:01:20.20\00:01:23.41
are significant in
Canada and they highlight
00:01:23.44\00:01:27.04
what a typical modernly
secular government does,
00:01:27.07\00:01:33.17
when it's dealing
with religious liberty.
00:01:33.20\00:01:36.96
A secular mindset or worldview
will take religious liberty
00:01:36.99\00:01:42.31
and it will say,
it's not doctrinal,
00:01:42.34\00:01:47.06
it's not
theological, it's simply choice
00:01:47.09\00:01:49.08
and we're going to
protect your choice.
00:01:49.11\00:01:51.25
Part of the
diversity of a modern society.
00:01:51.28\00:01:53.32
Part of the
diversity of a modern society
00:01:53.35\00:01:55.35
and we'll protect
your choice in Canada.
00:01:55.38\00:01:57.56
Well, that happens up to a point
00:01:57.59\00:02:00.79
and when your
choice as an individual
00:02:00.82\00:02:04.96
somehow threatens or conflicts
00:02:04.99\00:02:06.58
with what's good
for the community
00:02:06.61\00:02:08.24
or what's good for
Canada you'll loose your rights
00:02:08.27\00:02:12.42
because it's the discriminate
00:02:12.45\00:02:15.44
or the infringement on
your right is justified.
00:02:15.47\00:02:18.66
And the two cases that
I'm speaking of occurred in--
00:02:18.69\00:02:24.21
were heard by the Supreme Court
00:02:24.24\00:02:26.67
and the decisions are
released, in 1985 and 1986.
00:02:26.70\00:02:31.35
Pretty recent ones.
00:02:31.38\00:02:32.59
Yes, but they
are not that recent.
00:02:32.62\00:02:33.65
But the ramifications
are just working with them.
00:02:33.68\00:02:34.71
They are very significant.
They completely highlight
00:02:34.74\00:02:38.19
my point about, you know,
00:02:38.22\00:02:39.32
a modernly secular government
and what you can use that.
00:02:39.35\00:02:41.71
And when did the--
I wasn't just trying
00:02:41.74\00:02:44.59
the tip the
upper cart there but.
00:02:44.62\00:02:46.04
I was wondering as
you're talking when would you
00:02:46.07\00:02:49.22
really date Canada
stilt towards secularism from?
00:02:49.25\00:02:53.66
Like I could
remember not many years ago,
00:02:53.69\00:02:55.51
wasn't the stock hold day
was running for Prime Minister
00:02:55.54\00:02:58.41
and he was conservative
with the religious identity.
00:02:58.44\00:03:03.03
Oh, you actually questioned
00:03:03.06\00:03:05.32
that it's outside
the area of my expertise.
00:03:05.35\00:03:07.43
But I'm going to
give you my opinion anyway
00:03:07.46\00:03:10.11
and I would date
it from the charter.
00:03:10.14\00:03:12.41
The charter came in-- it
was meant to be a instrument
00:03:12.44\00:03:16.35
that would protect citizens
00:03:16.38\00:03:19.21
that we were doing
really well before that.
00:03:19.24\00:03:22.35
But the charter is
not very-- It's humanist.
00:03:22.38\00:03:24.60
It's a humanist
document, you know, it was 1980.
00:03:24.63\00:03:27.66
Is it that far ago?
Came in 1982 and so--
00:03:27.69\00:03:33.30
So the charter Canada
doesn't have in the same formal
00:03:33.33\00:03:36.43
ways as US constitutions
of the charter was sort of
00:03:36.46\00:03:41.35
an overview
document to put in place
00:03:41.38\00:03:45.31
to define
Canadian law, isn't it?
00:03:45.34\00:03:49.20
Fine. What's the charter?
That's what I'm pressing.
00:03:49.23\00:03:51.55
It's an end of the topic
and I will just briefly say
00:03:51.58\00:03:55.10
that the charter was
added to the constitution
00:03:55.13\00:03:59.46
that Canada already had
and what it did to sort of--
00:03:59.49\00:04:02.98
So didn't substitute.
00:04:03.01\00:04:04.04
I got the idea
that it was placed it.
00:04:04.07\00:04:05.41
No, it was not a substitution.
00:04:05.44\00:04:06.47
What it served to do
was to put in writing,
00:04:06.50\00:04:09.94
protection of the citizens
00:04:09.97\00:04:12.36
with respect to government
and respecting rights.
00:04:12.39\00:04:17.11
So religious freedom--
And may be you're living
00:04:17.14\00:04:20.34
through some of what
Madison was afraid of
00:04:20.37\00:04:23.06
with the first 10 amendments.
00:04:23.09\00:04:24.95
He didn't believe
in those amendments
00:04:24.98\00:04:26.60
because they would
tend to-- he thought limit
00:04:26.63\00:04:30.35
these broad philosophical rights
00:04:30.38\00:04:33.49
that were implicit
in the constitution
00:04:33.52\00:04:36.77
by making them particular,
as the charter done that.
00:04:36.80\00:04:39.43
You had a constitution
before and here it sort of
00:04:39.46\00:04:42.20
nails down some
secular sort of particulars
00:04:42.23\00:04:46.31
and squid the underline freedom.
00:04:46.34\00:04:48.64
It's definitely nailed
down some secular particulars.
00:04:48.67\00:04:51.97
And it was a humanist
document in my opinion.
00:04:52.00\00:04:56.92
And it has had
an interesting fact
00:04:56.95\00:05:00.25
on shaping governmental values
00:05:00.28\00:05:04.08
and shaping the
direction that the courts
00:05:04.11\00:05:06.10
went in and that legislation
00:05:06.13\00:05:08.30
and it's another
topic all together.
00:05:08.33\00:05:11.62
Okay, tell us about the case.
00:05:11.65\00:05:14.73
In 1985 and the
Supreme Court of Canada,
00:05:14.76\00:05:18.06
highest court in the land heard
a case called Big M Drug Mart.
00:05:18.09\00:05:22.04
And the question
before the court was
00:05:22.07\00:05:24.31
it had to do
with the Lords Day Act
00:05:24.34\00:05:27.65
and the question was
00:05:27.68\00:05:29.87
"Are Sunday laws in
violation of the constitution?"
00:05:29.90\00:05:33.18
Do you they discriminated that
they're in violation in Canada.
00:05:33.21\00:05:38.28
And the Supreme
Court said yes, they are.
00:05:38.31\00:05:40.93
And the result was that
the Lords Day Act was repealed.
00:05:40.96\00:05:44.52
Same court, same question,
00:05:44.55\00:05:48.84
12 months later 1986,
00:05:48.87\00:05:53.89
case referred to his
little Edwards book shop
00:05:53.92\00:05:56.41
is heard and the court says,
00:05:56.44\00:06:01.26
"Well, yes, Sunday laws are
in violation of the constitution
00:06:01.29\00:06:07.47
and they discriminate with
respective religious liberty"
00:06:07.50\00:06:11.07
but only against
Saturday keepers,
00:06:11.10\00:06:14.70
only against
people who keep Saturday
00:06:14.73\00:06:16.50
and this time the
legislation in question
00:06:16.53\00:06:19.50
was business closing
act or something similar
00:06:19.53\00:06:25.32
and the court
said it's justified,
00:06:25.35\00:06:30.17
we're gonna keep it,
we're not gonna repeal it.
00:06:30.20\00:06:32.96
I'm sorry to
interrupt now-- Go ahead.
00:06:35.33\00:06:37.81
First of all many of our viewers
00:06:37.84\00:06:39.84
may not have heard
about these Sunday Laws.
00:06:39.87\00:06:41.46
In the US they are often
referred to his blue laws.
00:06:41.49\00:06:44.42
They don't have that
terminology in canada?
00:06:44.45\00:06:46.43
We do but they wouldn't have
been referred to as blue law
00:06:46.46\00:06:49.14
because they were enforced.
00:06:49.17\00:06:50.73
You know, people would
hear to them across Canada.
00:06:53.07\00:06:56.73
So the court
decided for certain reasons
00:06:56.76\00:07:02.98
that a Sunday
Closing Law is justified.
00:07:03.01\00:07:05.68
And here's what they
said, "What cannot be forgotten
00:07:05.71\00:07:09.07
as that the
object of the legislation
00:07:09.10\00:07:11.02
is to benefit retail employees
by making available to them
00:07:11.05\00:07:15.51
a weekly holiday which coincides
00:07:15.54\00:07:17.79
with that enjoyed by
most of the community"
00:07:17.82\00:07:20.39
Now keep in mind
because this is a secular court
00:07:20.42\00:07:22.39
and this is a decision
and here are the reasons
00:07:22.42\00:07:25.40
justifying the protection
of the observance of a day
00:07:25.43\00:07:31.50
that happens to have historical
religious significance, okay.
00:07:31.53\00:07:35.57
So this is a secular
court protecting this law
00:07:35.60\00:07:39.00
and here are the reasons
and when I read them to you,
00:07:39.03\00:07:42.12
you think about news that
you've heard internationally.
00:07:42.15\00:07:45.58
These are often the
reasons that are given in Europe
00:07:45.61\00:07:47.99
for wanted a national Sunday Law
and in the different countries.
00:07:48.02\00:07:51.89
I mean rest day in
Europe at the moment.
00:07:51.92\00:07:53.76
Yes. Here's what the court said.
00:07:53.79\00:07:55.62
These employees do not
00:07:57.31\00:07:58.48
constitute a
powerful group in society."
00:07:58.51\00:08:01.32
Okay, you have to be protected.
00:08:01.35\00:08:03.03
"In this context it
is worth reiterating
00:08:03.06\00:08:05.68
some of remarks of the
Law Reform Commissioner."
00:08:05.71\00:08:08.02
So here it is.
00:08:08.05\00:08:09.34
"The peculiar position
of the retail employees
00:08:09.37\00:08:12.18
deserves comment here because
an open commercial Sunday
00:08:12.21\00:08:15.50
would probably extract the
highest toll from these people.
00:08:15.53\00:08:19.66
It is already been
shown that less then
00:08:19.69\00:08:21.70
10% of this total
group are unionized"
00:08:21.73\00:08:25.53
so there's a union issue"
and this percentage would be
00:08:25.56\00:08:28.60
even lower if food
store employee were included."
00:08:28.63\00:08:31.37
Because you have
tent to have unions
00:08:31.40\00:08:33.08
in the glossaries
stores but not in retail.
00:08:33.11\00:08:35.97
"The retail work force
is distinguished by the fact
00:08:36.00\00:08:38.69
that the people are
older, more likely to be female
00:08:38.72\00:08:41.83
and more heterogeneous
than other labor groups."
00:08:41.86\00:08:45.38
Okay, so now its gender, age,
00:08:45.41\00:08:50.04
okay they are
unionized and they go on.
00:08:50.07\00:08:54.02
"The concern, then, is
mainly for low skilled,
00:08:54.05\00:08:57.69
non-union poorly
educated employees
00:08:57.72\00:09:01.17
whose continued earnings
are critical for family support,
00:09:01.20\00:09:04.91
people who have
the least mobility
00:09:04.94\00:09:06.71
in terms of job alternatives
00:09:06.74\00:09:08.67
and are least capable
of expressing themselves
00:09:08.70\00:09:11.38
to readdress their grievances.
00:09:11.41\00:09:13.72
Particularly in
times high unemployment
00:09:13.75\00:09:16.57
these people are
susceptible to economic coercion
00:09:16.60\00:09:19.89
and would unlikely be
in any position to offer
00:09:19.92\00:09:22.62
effective
resistance to Sunday employment
00:09:22.65\00:09:24.88
dictated by management
00:09:24.91\00:09:26.69
even though they
were given a legal choice
00:09:26.72\00:09:28.87
as to whether or not
they wanted to work Sundays."
00:09:28.90\00:09:31.96
So here they are saying
well, even if they had a choice
00:09:31.99\00:09:34.85
unless you make the
stores close on Sunday,
00:09:34.88\00:09:38.14
there won't be fairness with
respect to labor and management
00:09:38.17\00:09:41.08
and they have rolled it out.
00:09:41.11\00:09:43.17
Its family, it's--they
are not represented by union.
00:09:43.20\00:09:46.66
They are women, you
know, they are not educated,
00:09:46.69\00:09:49.11
they are not
skilled, and you--hear this
00:09:49.14\00:09:53.10
time and time
again in the Roderick
00:09:53.13\00:09:55.70
defending or
advocating Sunday Laws.
00:09:55.73\00:09:58.51
So how can it be argued
against at this early point
00:09:58.54\00:10:02.72
when it doesn't really
have a religious reason
00:10:02.75\00:10:05.44
and well you sort of smell
a rat reading through that,
00:10:05.47\00:10:09.72
they are all
reasonable assumptions.
00:10:09.75\00:10:13.36
They are accepting--
the court accepted here
00:10:14.99\00:10:18.93
what's called
the secular fiction.
00:10:18.96\00:10:21.56
You know, it's a fiction
00:10:21.59\00:10:23.43
that there is such a
thing as a secular Sunday Law.
00:10:23.46\00:10:26.31
I mean, whether you're asking
00:10:26.34\00:10:27.85
or forcing people
to go to church or not,
00:10:27.88\00:10:29.73
you're forcing
everybody to observe a day.
00:10:29.76\00:10:32.70
You're
observing it by, you know,
00:10:32.73\00:10:35.61
deleting or
restricting commercial activity.
00:10:35.64\00:10:38.91
You're forcing
observance of this day
00:10:38.94\00:10:41.50
by all your citizens
00:10:41.53\00:10:43.63
and it has a historical
religious significance
00:10:43.66\00:10:46.82
and it's a fiction but
the court had accepted this.
00:10:46.85\00:10:50.34
When I was young
I used to tag along
00:10:53.00\00:10:56.15
with my father in Australia
when he was in temperance work.
00:10:56.18\00:11:00.23
We go to the different hotels,
00:11:00.26\00:11:03.32
not drinking-- he
was on temperance.
00:11:03.35\00:11:05.50
He would talk to the drunks
and observe what was going on
00:11:05.53\00:11:09.06
and that was all
part of an effort
00:11:09.09\00:11:12.69
that with our church and
other civics mind of groups
00:11:12.72\00:11:17.65
were pursuing to
shortening-- you know,
00:11:17.68\00:11:22.30
have early closing
times for places like that.
00:11:22.33\00:11:27.08
I mean, that isn't
that a reasonable thing
00:11:27.11\00:11:29.05
to for society to have a hand
in the times of retail activity.
00:11:29.08\00:11:35.69
In this case shorten this
00:11:35.72\00:11:36.91
because that had
a social benefit.
00:11:36.94\00:11:38.52
And if society
decided Monday, Sunday,
00:11:38.55\00:11:42.74
or whatever day
restrict commercial activity
00:11:42.77\00:11:46.95
for whatever reason,
whether it's for rest
00:11:46.98\00:11:48.95
or like daylight
saving, it's sort of a device
00:11:48.98\00:11:53.66
to save electricity and so on.
00:11:53.69\00:11:56.33
How can you argue
against that until
00:11:58.02\00:12:00.90
and unless you know that
there has a religious intention
00:12:00.93\00:12:03.95
or cohesive intention
on religious activity?
00:12:03.98\00:12:07.41
I'm the devils
advocate a bit but--
00:12:07.44\00:12:09.59
Because the government--
00:12:09.62\00:12:12.07
I believe the government
does have an obligation
00:12:12.10\00:12:14.60
to legislate for
the community good
00:12:14.63\00:12:18.19
and it for the good of
the community, however--
00:12:18.22\00:12:20.29
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
That's their only obligation.
00:12:20.32\00:12:21.81
They have an
obligation to do that
00:12:21.84\00:12:24.08
and at least in
truce way possible, right.
00:12:24.11\00:12:26.25
So instead of
implementing legislation
00:12:26.28\00:12:30.72
that enforces observance
of a day on all the citizens,
00:12:30.75\00:12:34.45
a day with historical
religious significance.
00:12:34.48\00:12:37.33
There are other ways to balance
00:12:37.36\00:12:40.64
the labor
management and, you know,
00:12:40.67\00:12:43.14
or imbalance, you
know, between the power
00:12:43.17\00:12:45.41
and they could
definitely impose you.
00:12:45.44\00:12:52.33
You have to give them a day off
00:12:52.36\00:12:54.82
and they get to
choose and in the decision
00:12:54.85\00:12:58.12
they are saying, oh, well,
00:12:58.15\00:12:59.42
they are just so
lacking in verbal skills
00:12:59.45\00:13:03.14
and education and so
on that they couldn't
00:13:03.17\00:13:05.70
pick Sunday if they
were allowed to pick Sunday.
00:13:05.73\00:13:07.76
There's a latest
element of that whole statement.
00:13:07.79\00:13:10.30
But again I remember in England
00:13:10.33\00:13:12.66
and maybe it's
chat well I think so
00:13:12.69\00:13:14.48
because it's
not there many years
00:13:14.51\00:13:15.55
since I was last in
England, but you drive in
00:13:15.58\00:13:17.84
out of London or Manchester
00:13:17.87\00:13:19.49
or the big cities and
in the towns in England
00:13:19.52\00:13:23.45
you will drive
through one little town
00:13:23.48\00:13:25.37
on Tuesday say and
everything shut, everything.
00:13:25.40\00:13:29.02
That's the day for that town.
00:13:29.05\00:13:31.13
You drive five
miles in the next town
00:13:31.16\00:13:32.91
they will open but on
Wednesday they will be shut.
00:13:32.94\00:13:35.27
You come across
that thing before?
00:13:35.30\00:13:36.79
No.
00:13:36.82\00:13:38.14
A very obituary thing
where an entire town shuts down
00:13:38.17\00:13:42.15
not all on the same day but
its common all across England
00:13:42.18\00:13:46.68
and I wonder the origin of
that can't have been religious.
00:13:46.71\00:13:50.10
But there's obituary
element and may be by common
00:13:50.13\00:13:54.25
agreement that-- there's
just nothing in that town
00:13:54.28\00:13:57.89
other than
perhaps the gas station
00:13:57.92\00:13:59.30
or petrol in
England going through.
00:13:59.33\00:14:01.45
Well, you are imposing idleness.
00:14:01.48\00:14:05.61
Well, this is very interesting
concept legislatively speaking
00:14:05.64\00:14:10.32
and it doesn't go along
very well with capitalist,
00:14:10.35\00:14:12.75
immensely surprising.
00:14:12.78\00:14:13.81
No, we don't
impose idleness. Okay.
00:14:13.84\00:14:15.20
Hello, we'll impose the break
00:14:15.23\00:14:16.99
in the program so
stand by don't leave us.
00:14:17.02\00:14:21.22
We'll be back shortly to
continue this discussion.
00:14:21.25\00:14:23.80