Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Grace Mackintosh
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000223A
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00:23 Welcome to the "Liberty Insider."
00:24 This is your program bringing discussions, 00:28 analysis, news, views and general information 00:31 on religious liberty issues 00:33 in the United States and around the world. 00:36 My name is Lincoln Steed. I'm editor of Liberty Magazine. 00:40 And my guest on this program is Grace Mackintosh, 00:43 director of Public Affairs and Religious Liberty 00:45 for the Seventh-day Adventist Church in Canada. 00:49 And I want to talk with you Grace on this program 00:52 about things that relate to Canada. 00:53 Although there's a larger application 00:55 and I know lot of things are bubbling 00:58 and percolating the other courts have been active of life. 01:02 Very often, we are talking about gay rights and so on 01:05 and I don't want to on this program directly. 01:09 But homeschooling is something 01:11 that's always caught my attention. 01:13 And as I told you before the program 01:15 the very first issue of Liberty Magazine 01:17 that I put together featured homeschooling. 01:19 Do you see some dangers in homeschooling 01:22 and how parents in Canada are inculcating 01:25 moral values to their children? 01:27 Is that under some sought of a threat there? 01:30 Absolutely, I've seen some significant decisions 01:34 and at courts in the last three years or so. 01:38 And one of the most significant decisions was made in 2012 01:44 by the Supreme Court of Canada, highest court in the land. 01:47 And it had to do with curriculum in Quebec 01:51 that was imposed on public schools, 01:55 parochial, private and homeschoolers. 01:58 And so you had to be in compliance with this curriculum 02:02 and there was a problem with the curriculum 02:05 as far as of parents of many worldviews were concerned. 02:09 However it was the Christians that were most concerned 02:13 and brought the issue to the courts. 02:14 Now the curriculum you have to understand 02:18 was important it was-- 02:21 it is a curriculum that is taught every year 02:25 from grade 1 to grade 11 because in Quebec 02:28 they don't have grade 12. 02:30 And the curriculum is not a comparative religion course. 02:36 It's a sampling of religions that are out there. 02:40 And the two main issues among others with the curriculum 02:45 was that it taught that all our religions are the same, 02:49 they're all equal, no one is any better than the other 02:52 which is a continual undermining of the First Commandments. 02:56 Thou shall have no other gods before thee. Yeah. 02:59 Where as this is teaching and it doesn't really matter 03:01 you know they are the same. 03:02 And it will confuse and indoctrinate the children. 03:05 In many different views that it kind of points 03:07 to what's in the home or-- 03:09 Yeah. The parent's commitment. 03:11 And it brings to mind the words of David. 03:13 "They had made void thy law." 03:14 So how are we globally making void the law of God 03:19 through legislation policy and curriculum? 03:23 And so this is was a big concern. 03:24 And why does Canada or Quebec 03:26 think they have to even be talking about religion? Well. 03:30 Should that be left to their home? 03:32 Well they're very concerned about intolerance, bullying. 03:36 We have a multicultural situation in Canada. 03:39 And so the government wants the school to play a role 03:43 in easing or teaching the children tolerance. 03:47 However, they are undermining the faith of the children 03:54 as they come to school 03:55 and the families that are represented. 03:58 And in 66 Canada ratified international UN document 04:06 which basically said that with respect to morals, ethics 04:09 and religion the parents will be given the authority 04:13 to contribute to that education. 04:16 And this is in total-- 04:18 That was how it once was but most governments 04:22 and most educational arms of these governments 04:25 it seems to me in the western world 04:26 seemed to have decided that they know 04:28 better than the parents probably. Yes. 04:30 That's the pertness not just in Canada. It's true. 04:33 And there seems to be consensus 04:36 that perhaps the government is neutral 04:38 but that is not historically the case. Yeah. 04:41 I mean you just have to look at World War II 04:43 to realize that government can be very, very wrong. 04:46 I mean Hitler said that the Jews were not human. 04:51 And therefore killing them was not a crime. 04:54 So we have to really watch like 04:56 what the government is rolling out. 04:58 The other issue, main issue with the curriculum 05:01 is in my opinion its insidious. 05:04 It's the most malevolent of the two 05:08 and that is that it teaches the children, 05:11 that fundamentalism is the problem. 05:13 Don't take religion too seriously. 05:15 If you take religion too seriously you can end up 05:19 killing somebody for that. 05:20 You end up discriminating. Don't do that. 05:23 Yes, and this is a broad based thing I thing in the US 05:26 and most western countries since 9/11. 05:28 This has taken grip that its, that its hardcore adopting 05:32 of the religious viewpoint and then and extremist application 05:36 that causes all the troubles. In my-- 05:39 And get any reading of the Bible as that you how Jesus says 05:44 "I want your whole heart, your whole life, you're very soul." 05:46 You know, so it set counterpoints 05:48 with what religion demands with someone. 05:50 And in my observation this has become fanatic. 05:53 Just listen for these words wherever you go. 05:57 Fanaticism, extremism-- Fundamentalism. 06:00 Yeah, fundamentalism and don't think 06:03 that Christians are not caught by that definition. 06:06 If you believe in creation, 06:08 if you believe that the Bible is inspired, 06:11 if you believe what the Bible says about homosexuality 06:14 you could be caught by that definition. 06:17 And you are public enemy number one. 06:20 So you have from grade 1 through grade 11 06:23 and they're being taught don't take this too seriously. 06:28 There's it's an indirect kick at fundamentalism 06:32 and the very core of Christianity. 06:35 Now I have a question. I have and throw you-- 06:37 Just don't worry. 06:38 But in Quebec, you know, the separatist views of Quebec 06:43 are matter of history because that was French dominated 06:48 and England took it over led to Canadian independence. 06:54 And they're not only French speaking, 06:56 there was high Roman Catholic influence there where there is 06:59 more Protestantism in the rest of Canada. 07:02 How does this curriculum in Quebec teach and discriminate 07:07 and you had to interrelate there 07:08 between Protestantism and Catholicism. 07:10 Or is it about keep into that just over that Christian. 07:11 It doesn't get into that. 07:13 Yet as if--it is a manifestation of a struggle 07:17 in Quebec historically as to who is going to control education. 07:23 So you have a predominantly Catholic province 07:27 who has historically had control with respective curriculum 07:31 and maneuver education and has had 07:32 independence in their schools. 07:34 Let me rephrase the question. 07:35 Now you have the secular government saying, 07:37 you know, you're not no longer in the driver seat we are 07:41 and you have to teach this the way that it is written 07:44 in your schools and in every educational setting. 07:47 And so it is a manifestation of a historical conflict. 07:51 Yes. But then when it is talking about these religions, 07:54 you say it's just laying they out. 07:58 You're not allowed to compare them. 08:00 It is not a comparative. 08:01 Okay, just giving information sort of doctrine I think. Yes. 08:05 How does it treat Christianity? 08:07 Is it break it up or is it does it 08:09 just talk about Protestantism, 08:11 does it talk about Catholicism or it just talk 08:13 about Christianity, invisible/Catholicism. 08:18 What's their projection of Christianity? 08:20 Is it a Catholic viewpoint? I have this. 08:23 Or with the Protestant? 08:24 Or it couldn't have a Protestant bias there. 08:26 But I'm curious. I have. 08:27 How they would believe through. 08:29 I have read the curriculum but briefly 08:32 and I have read some of the documents 08:35 that were presented to the court. 08:37 And I don't have that detail. 08:41 I don't have that detail with respective how they-- 08:42 It doesn't change the overall dynamics 08:43 but as a matter of curiosity I'd to wonder because-- 08:46 Oh, I've to get back it. 08:47 There would likely be a spin on that I think. 08:48 I have to get back to you say how the history of the church 08:52 is presented and the reformation even perhaps. 08:56 Now I'll tell you the reason I'm asking this. 08:58 Its not one reason. 09:00 You know, we were shocked in the build up 09:04 to the US presidential election, the last one. 09:06 And Senator Santorum a Roman Catholic ex-senator 09:11 keeps the title but he is out of office. 09:14 In his run for the presidential nomination 09:17 or the candidate nomination for Republican. 09:19 He made a comment 09:21 that Protestantism is absent in America. 09:25 And as a Seventh-day Adventist I resonated 09:27 because we're given to understand that 09:30 at some later point the very Protestant nature 09:33 of the United States will be diffused so much 09:35 that more Catholic sensibility will rise up. 09:38 And I think he is right unfortunately. 09:42 But, you know, he'd looked-- 09:44 he is looking at the country Catholic spectacles. 09:46 And I'm sure the same thing would happen in Quebec. 09:49 So I just wondered what the spectacles were seeing. 09:52 It is an interesting question 09:53 and I have to answer on other time because it-- 09:56 We'll have you back for another program. 09:58 I don't have the answer on this program. 09:59 But let's talk a little bit more about the ramification to this. 10:02 Right. Till last February the Supreme Court of Canada 10:08 denied the right to appeal 10:11 the decision from the lower courts. 10:13 So a group of parents went to court for the right to remove 10:17 their children from the courses or the to teach the courses 10:20 from a confessional point of view. 10:23 And they lost and they lost at the Court of Appeal. 10:29 So they appealed to Supreme Court of Canada 10:32 and the Supreme Court of Canada said 10:34 several strange things in my opinion. 10:40 First of all, they said, you haven't provided an nexus 10:44 between the curriculum and the discrimination claimed. 10:47 But the affidavits and the fact-- 10:50 actually did role out the connection. 10:53 They did talk about the First Commandment 10:55 and they did talked about you know what I have mentioned 10:57 this two things and many other issues. 11:01 They said that the record was sloppy 11:02 and it had been put together hastily 11:04 and that may or may not be true. 11:06 But its certainly seems to be a strange reason to not listen 11:09 to an issue dealing with freedom of religion or, 11:13 you know, discrimination. 11:14 It's such a huge issue that involves 11:17 and engages the charter. 11:19 And they said that even if there was a nexus 11:23 or that there was potential discrimination they would like 11:26 to see a generation go through to see the result. 11:31 Which is you know if you can see the consequences 11:33 and the principle you should make efforts to work 11:37 against the principle as allowing things to unfolding. 11:40 Then it just becomes much more complicated. 11:42 So another way they'd show you the great disinterest. Yeah. 11:45 Or a lack of sensitivity. That's right. 11:47 So this is in the news and it reads, 11:53 "Canada's top court on Friday rejected 11:56 and appeal from parents in Quebec 11:58 who sort the rate to keep their children out of an ethics 12:00 and religious culture programs taught in the provinces schools. 12:05 The program which is introduced in 2008 to elementary 12:08 and high schools by the provincial education ministry 12:11 replaced religion and classes with a curriculum covering 12:14 all major faiths found in Quebec culture 12:16 including catholic Protestants Jewish and aboriginal views. 12:20 Exposing, children to a comprehensive presentation 12:23 of various religions without forcing the children 12:25 to join them does not constituent indoctrination 12:28 of students that would infringe the freedom of religion." 12:31 So this is Madam Justice Marie Deschamps 12:34 wrote in the main ruling. 12:37 Now what's interesting is that as soon as 12:41 this decision came out within days in Alberta, 12:47 there was draft amendment to the education act. 12:52 And in the draft it basically made it 12:57 a violation of the legislation to teach 13:00 in any educational setting anything against homosexuality. 13:05 And that if you were violation of the human rights court 13:08 in Alberta you would be in violation of the act. 13:12 And if you were a private school you could be shutdown. 13:17 So they actually said that. 13:18 Yes, their minister had that authority 13:21 that breath of authority and if you were homeschoolers 13:24 it didn't say what would happen to you. 13:26 Which was even more of a threat 13:28 and the homeschoolers protested this 13:32 and they questioned the minister and the ministers of education 13:37 and they were denied any clarification. 13:40 This--these amendments went through two readings. 13:46 And it would have passed the third reading. 13:48 So this is legislation. Yes. 13:50 Empowering the department of education. 13:52 Yes, and when they were questioned 13:54 by the homeschooling association they said we can do this. 13:59 And the reason we can do this is because of the decision 14:02 Supreme Court just made with respect 14:04 to the Quebec curriculum saying, 14:07 parents you have no right to interfere 14:10 with this aspect of the education of your children." 14:13 Incredible, incredible. 14:15 Well I'm sure you wonder stay with us. 14:17 And come back after the break and here more discussion 14:20 and what really, what this is mean for family freedom, 14:24 for integrity on teaching Christian values. 14:27 Stay with us we'll be right back. |
Revised 2014-12-17