Welcome to the
"Liberty Insider."
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This is your program
bringing discussions,
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analysis, news, views
and general information
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on religious liberty issues
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in the United States
and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed.
I'm editor of Liberty Magazine.
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And my guest on this
program is Grace Mackintosh,
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director of Public
Affairs and Religious Liberty
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for the Seventh-day
Adventist Church in Canada.
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And I want to talk with
you Grace on this program
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about things
that relate to Canada.
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Although there's
a larger application
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and I know lot of
things are bubbling
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and percolating the other
courts have been active of life.
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Very often, we are talking
about gay rights and so on
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and I don't want to
on this program directly.
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But homeschooling is something
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that's always
caught my attention.
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And as I told you
before the program
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the very first
issue of Liberty Magazine
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that I put together
featured homeschooling.
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Do you see some
dangers in homeschooling
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and how parents in
Canada are inculcating
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moral values to their children?
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Is that under some
sought of a threat there?
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Absolutely, I've seen
some significant decisions
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and at courts in the
last three years or so.
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And one of the most significant
decisions was made in 2012
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by the Supreme Court of Canada,
highest court in the land.
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And it had to do
with curriculum in Quebec
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that was imposed
on public schools,
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parochial,
private and homeschoolers.
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And so you had to be in
compliance with this curriculum
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and there was a
problem with the curriculum
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as far as of parents of
many worldviews were concerned.
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However it was the Christians
that were most concerned
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and brought the
issue to the courts.
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Now the curriculum
you have to understand
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was important it was--
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it is a curriculum
that is taught every year
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from grade 1 to
grade 11 because in Quebec
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they don't have grade 12.
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And the curriculum is not a
comparative religion course.
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It's a sampling of
religions that are out there.
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And the two main issues
among others with the curriculum
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was that it taught that
all our religions are the same,
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they're all equal, no one
is any better than the other
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which is a continual undermining
of the First Commandments.
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Thou shall have no
other gods before thee. Yeah.
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Where as this is teaching
and it doesn't really matter
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you know they are the same.
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And it will confuse and
indoctrinate the children.
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In many different
views that it kind of points
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to what's in the home or--
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Yeah. The parent's commitment.
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And it brings to
mind the words of David.
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"They had made void thy law."
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So how are we globally
making void the law of God
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through legislation
policy and curriculum?
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And so this is
was a big concern.
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And why does Canada or Quebec
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think they have to even be
talking about religion? Well.
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Should that be
left to their home?
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Well they're very concerned
about intolerance, bullying.
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We have a multicultural
situation in Canada.
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And so the government
wants the school to play a role
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in easing or teaching
the children tolerance.
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However, they are undermining
the faith of the children
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as they come to school
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and the families
that are represented.
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And in 66 Canada ratified
international UN document
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which basically said that
with respect to morals, ethics
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and religion the parents
will be given the authority
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to contribute to that education.
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And this is in total--
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That was how it once
was but most governments
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and most educational
arms of these governments
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it seems to me
in the western world
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seemed to have
decided that they know
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better than the
parents probably. Yes.
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That's the pertness not
just in Canada. It's true.
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And there seems to be consensus
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that perhaps the
government is neutral
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but that is not
historically the case. Yeah.
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I mean you just have
to look at World War II
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to realize that government
can be very, very wrong.
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I mean Hitler said that
the Jews were not human.
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And therefore
killing them was not a crime.
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So we have to really watch like
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what the
government is rolling out.
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The other issue, main
issue with the curriculum
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is in my opinion its insidious.
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It's the most
malevolent of the two
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and that is that it
teaches the children,
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that
fundamentalism is the problem.
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Don't take
religion too seriously.
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If you take religion
too seriously you can end up
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killing somebody for that.
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You end up
discriminating. Don't do that.
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Yes, and this is a broad
based thing I thing in the US
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and most western
countries since 9/11.
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This has taken grip that
its, that its hardcore adopting
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of the religious viewpoint and
then and extremist application
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that causes all
the troubles. In my--
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And get any reading of the
Bible as that you how Jesus says
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"I want your whole heart, your
whole life, you're very soul."
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You know, so it
set counterpoints
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with what religion
demands with someone.
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And in my observation
this has become fanatic.
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Just listen for these
words wherever you go.
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Fanaticism,
extremism-- Fundamentalism.
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Yeah,
fundamentalism and don't think
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that Christians are not
caught by that definition.
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If you believe in creation,
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if you believe that
the Bible is inspired,
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if you believe what the
Bible says about homosexuality
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you could be
caught by that definition.
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And you are
public enemy number one.
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So you have from
grade 1 through grade 11
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and they're being taught
don't take this too seriously.
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There's it's an
indirect kick at fundamentalism
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and the very
core of Christianity.
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Now I have a
question. I have and throw you--
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Just don't worry.
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But in Quebec, you know,
the separatist views of Quebec
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are matter of history because
that was French dominated
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and England took it over
led to Canadian independence.
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And they're not
only French speaking,
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there was high Roman Catholic
influence there where there is
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more Protestantism
in the rest of Canada.
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How does this curriculum in
Quebec teach and discriminate
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and you had to interrelate there
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between
Protestantism and Catholicism.
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Or is it about keep into
that just over that Christian.
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It doesn't get into that.
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Yet as if--it is a
manifestation of a struggle
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in Quebec historically as to who
is going to control education.
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So you have a
predominantly Catholic province
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who has historically had control
with respective curriculum
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and maneuver
education and has had
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independence in their schools.
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Let me rephrase the question.
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Now you have the
secular government saying,
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you know, you're not no
longer in the driver seat we are
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and you have to teach
this the way that it is written
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in your schools and in
every educational setting.
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And so it is a manifestation
of a historical conflict.
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Yes. But then when it is
talking about these religions,
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you say it's
just laying they out.
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You're not
allowed to compare them.
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It is not a comparative.
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Okay, just giving information
sort of doctrine I think. Yes.
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How does it treat Christianity?
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Is it break it
up or is it does it
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just talk about Protestantism,
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does it talk about
Catholicism or it just talk
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about Christianity,
invisible/Catholicism.
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What's their
projection of Christianity?
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Is it a Catholic
viewpoint? I have this.
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Or with the Protestant?
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Or it couldn't have a
Protestant bias there.
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But I'm curious. I have.
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How they would believe through.
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I have read the
curriculum but briefly
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and I have read
some of the documents
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that were
presented to the court.
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And I don't have that detail.
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I don't have that detail
with respective how they--
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It doesn't change
the overall dynamics
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but as a matter of curiosity
I'd to wonder because--
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Oh, I've to get back it.
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There would likely be
a spin on that I think.
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I have to get back to you say
how the history of the church
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is presented and the
reformation even perhaps.
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Now I'll tell you the
reason I'm asking this.
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Its not one reason.
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You know, we were
shocked in the build up
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to the US presidential
election, the last one.
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And Senator Santorum a
Roman Catholic ex-senator
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keeps the title but
he is out of office.
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In his run for the
presidential nomination
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or the candidate
nomination for Republican.
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He made a comment
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that Protestantism
is absent in America.
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And as a Seventh-day
Adventist I resonated
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because we're
given to understand that
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at some later point
the very Protestant nature
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of the United States
will be diffused so much
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that more Catholic
sensibility will rise up.
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And I think he is
right unfortunately.
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But, you know, he'd looked--
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he is looking at the
country Catholic spectacles.
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And I'm sure the same
thing would happen in Quebec.
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So I just wondered what
the spectacles were seeing.
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It is an interesting question
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and I have to answer
on other time because it--
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We'll have you back
for another program.
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I don't have the
answer on this program.
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But let's talk a little bit more
about the ramification to this.
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Right. Till last February
the Supreme Court of Canada
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denied the right to appeal
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the decision
from the lower courts.
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So a group of parents went
to court for the right to remove
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their children from the courses
or the to teach the courses
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from a
confessional point of view.
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And they lost and they
lost at the Court of Appeal.
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So they appealed to
Supreme Court of Canada
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and the Supreme
Court of Canada said
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several strange
things in my opinion.
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First of all, they said,
you haven't provided an nexus
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between the curriculum and
the discrimination claimed.
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But the
affidavits and the fact--
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actually did role
out the connection.
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They did talk about
the First Commandment
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and they did talked about
you know what I have mentioned
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this two things
and many other issues.
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They said that
the record was sloppy
00:11:01.10\00:11:02.80
and it had been
put together hastily
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and that may or may not be true.
00:11:04.86\00:11:06.51
But its certainly seems to be
a strange reason to not listen
00:11:06.54\00:11:09.73
to an issue dealing
with freedom of religion or,
00:11:09.76\00:11:13.20
you know, discrimination.
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It's such a huge
issue that involves
00:11:14.68\00:11:17.93
and engages the charter.
00:11:17.96\00:11:19.88
And they said that
even if there was a nexus
00:11:19.91\00:11:23.52
or that there was potential
discrimination they would like
00:11:23.55\00:11:26.79
to see a generation go
through to see the result.
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Which is you know if
you can see the consequences
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and the principle you
should make efforts to work
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against the principle as
allowing things to unfolding.
00:11:37.59\00:11:40.55
Then it just becomes
much more complicated.
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So another way they'd show
you the great disinterest. Yeah.
00:11:42.36\00:11:44.97
Or a lack of
sensitivity. That's right.
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So this is in the
news and it reads,
00:11:47.45\00:11:53.62
"Canada's top
court on Friday rejected
00:11:53.65\00:11:56.21
and appeal from
parents in Quebec
00:11:56.24\00:11:58.30
who sort the rate to keep
their children out of an ethics
00:11:58.33\00:12:00.87
and religious culture programs
taught in the provinces schools.
00:12:00.90\00:12:05.15
The program which is
introduced in 2008 to elementary
00:12:05.18\00:12:08.21
and high schools by the
provincial education ministry
00:12:08.24\00:12:11.28
replaced religion and classes
with a curriculum covering
00:12:11.31\00:12:14.61
all major faiths
found in Quebec culture
00:12:14.64\00:12:16.59
including catholic Protestants
Jewish and aboriginal views.
00:12:16.62\00:12:20.44
Exposing, children to a
comprehensive presentation
00:12:20.47\00:12:23.09
of various religions
without forcing the children
00:12:23.12\00:12:25.75
to join them does not
constituent indoctrination
00:12:25.78\00:12:28.33
of students that would infringe
the freedom of religion."
00:12:28.36\00:12:31.57
So this is Madam
Justice Marie Deschamps
00:12:31.60\00:12:34.81
wrote in the main ruling.
00:12:34.84\00:12:37.38
Now what's
interesting is that as soon as
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this decision came out
within days in Alberta,
00:12:41.89\00:12:47.47
there was draft
amendment to the education act.
00:12:47.50\00:12:52.70
And in the draft
it basically made it
00:12:52.73\00:12:57.93
a violation of the
legislation to teach
00:12:57.96\00:13:00.86
in any educational setting
anything against homosexuality.
00:13:00.89\00:13:05.95
And that if you were violation
of the human rights court
00:13:05.98\00:13:08.94
in Alberta you would be
in violation of the act.
00:13:08.97\00:13:12.39
And if you were a private
school you could be shutdown.
00:13:12.42\00:13:17.59
So they actually said that.
00:13:17.62\00:13:18.79
Yes, their
minister had that authority
00:13:18.82\00:13:21.54
that breath of authority
and if you were homeschoolers
00:13:21.57\00:13:24.01
it didn't say what
would happen to you.
00:13:24.04\00:13:26.65
Which was even more of a threat
00:13:26.68\00:13:28.91
and the
homeschoolers protested this
00:13:28.94\00:13:32.22
and they questioned the minister
and the ministers of education
00:13:32.25\00:13:37.15
and they were
denied any clarification.
00:13:37.18\00:13:40.91
This--these amendments
went through two readings.
00:13:40.94\00:13:46.21
And it would have
passed the third reading.
00:13:46.24\00:13:48.65
So this is legislation. Yes.
00:13:48.68\00:13:50.14
Empowering the
department of education.
00:13:50.17\00:13:52.42
Yes, and when
they were questioned
00:13:52.45\00:13:54.02
by the homeschooling association
they said we can do this.
00:13:54.05\00:13:59.05
And the reason we can do
this is because of the decision
00:13:59.08\00:14:02.30
Supreme Court
just made with respect
00:14:02.33\00:14:04.81
to the Quebec curriculum saying,
00:14:04.84\00:14:07.01
parents you have
no right to interfere
00:14:07.04\00:14:10.45
with this aspect of the
education of your children."
00:14:10.48\00:14:13.73
Incredible, incredible.
00:14:13.76\00:14:15.85
Well I'm sure you
wonder stay with us.
00:14:15.88\00:14:17.74
And come back after the
break and here more discussion
00:14:17.77\00:14:20.07
and what really, what this
is mean for family freedom,
00:14:20.10\00:14:24.02
for integrity on
teaching Christian values.
00:14:24.05\00:14:27.63
Stay with us
we'll be right back.
00:14:27.66\00:14:29.36