Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Grace Mackintosh
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000222B
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00:07 Welcome back to the "Liberty Insider."
00:09 Before the break with Grace Mackintosh, 00:13 a lawyer and religious liberty leader for the Canadian church- 00:17 I was talking with you Grace 00:18 about the recent Supreme Court cases 00:21 in particular their decision 00:23 in the defensive marriage act, putting it aside. 00:26 But there was another fairly similar well not similar 00:30 but along the same track they set aside 00:34 or really agreed with the lower court that it set aside 00:38 a California initiative called "Proposition 8". 00:40 Yes. And I know you've been following that. 00:43 How would you describe for our viewers. 00:45 What "Proposition 8" was all about. 00:48 Well, "Proposition 8" is basically 00:52 refusing accept the religious definition of marriage 00:55 and having that imposed on the state. 00:58 And agreeing to much more secular definition of marriage 01:02 which would allow same sex individuals to be married 01:06 and the state would recognize this relationship as dependant. 01:13 And so benefits with respective employment 01:16 and insurance you know could that follow. 01:19 That will follow. Yeah. 01:21 But "Proposition 8" itself was an attempt by people 01:24 with a biblical view of marriage to define marriage by the state. 01:32 And impose that through legislation. 01:34 Yes, so it was not that different DOMA. 01:36 DOMA was on the federal level 01:39 and "Proposition 8" was in California on the state level. 01:43 And so the Supreme Court, as I understand, 01:47 it basically agreed with the lower court that invalidated 01:50 that saying I think they had no standing. 01:52 They didn't have a legal right to even bring that forward. 01:55 So the net effect of both of these actions 01:58 is to pretty much clear the way for the state 02:02 to advance gay marriages, 02:03 you say, with all of the privileges rights 02:06 that come with that. Right. 02:08 It's not really good morally, but it hasn't changed. 02:12 It seems to me the legal landscape much 02:15 because it's still in the civil sphere. 02:19 You know, the law administers it 02:20 without reference to religious prerogatives. 02:24 But what you know we were talking, 02:25 we've talked about this many times 02:27 and what do you think will happen 02:30 from the perspective of people of faith. 02:31 What are we going to see is it just the gay lifestyle 02:36 and marriage and so on that's going to be empowered 02:38 or is there a blowback. 02:39 Is it likely to inhibit Christian practice? 02:44 I believe it will create a context 02:47 within which a great deal of conflict takes place. 02:51 You have a worldview that is presented 02:57 by the state which is in direct conflict 03:00 with the teachings of the church. 03:02 And I'll just give you an example of 03:06 how that conflict can take place. 03:08 There is a story of the catholic charities. All right. 03:11 "The service arm of the Roman Catholic Church 03:14 glows its adoption program in Massachusetts 03:17 not because of the states gay marriage law, 03:19 but because of the gay anti-discrimination law 03:22 passed many years earlier. 03:23 In fact the charity had voluntarily placed 03:26 older foster children in gay and lesbian households, 03:29 among those most willing to take hard to place children. 03:32 Until the church hierarchy was alerted 03:35 and demanded that adoptions conform 03:37 to the churches religious teaching, 03:39 which was in conflict with the state law. 03:42 The "Proposition 8" campaign funded in large part by Mormons 03:45 who were urged to do so by their church 03:47 does not mention that the Mormon churches 03:50 adoption arm in Massachusetts is still operating 03:53 even though it does not place children 03:55 and gay and lesbian households." 03:57 And in Canada this is the rollout. 04:01 You know, when the state takes this position. 04:05 So you have a bed in breakfast. 04:07 You're a Christian, you don't want to put same sex individuals 04:11 together in a room together. 04:12 You don't want to put people 04:14 who aren't married together in a room. 04:16 But your practices and your teachings 04:20 are now in conflict with law. 04:23 And you have to choose then you're going to run the bed 04:25 and breakfast or not. 04:26 And we had a case in Ontario, Brockey 04:29 and he ran a publishing company. 04:31 And he was approached to publish- 04:32 I remember that. 04:34 Documentation or materials for a gay pride. 04:38 I don't know if it was a parade 04:39 but it was for something that they were planning 04:41 and he did not want to do that. 04:43 Now his business practice is in conflict with the state law, 04:50 and provincial law the federal law. 04:52 And it seems to me on some of these things 04:54 there's a pro and a con. 04:55 The person of faith has every right 04:58 to stand on their faith principles. 05:00 And the state has a reasonable, 05:02 in fact they have an obligation to administer 05:05 equally in all cases laws that are agreed by the state. 05:10 And the best I can say is that some of these situations 05:13 where a person of faith 05:15 has to stand on their faith and expect troubles. 05:20 I'm not arguing against this totally, 05:22 but it brings up the view 05:24 that I have long believed 05:25 that there are certain situations 05:28 inherent in taking a faith commitment 05:31 where there going to be difficulties. 05:32 Jesus said, "All who live a Godly life 05:35 will suffer persecution." 05:37 And particularly in the United States 05:38 where there has been this conflation of godliness 05:41 and the role of a Godly state or a moral state. 05:47 And people think that every difficulty 05:50 should be swept away before them. 05:52 We can't do that as Christians in every case. 05:55 And we need to recognize there are dark clouds ahead 05:59 where you going to have stand on your faith 06:01 and take some consequences. 06:03 And it's certainly not what we find in the Bible 06:06 from beginning to end. Absolutely. 06:09 It was a trouble that faced people of faith. 06:12 But when a state takes a position 06:15 and is in direct conflict with the teachings of the church 06:17 you are constantly bumping up against that. 06:20 I think there's some rocky roads ahead, rocky road, 06:24 rocky situation lot of bumps using that figure. 06:27 In Canada, a lot of the bumps end up 06:31 happening in within the context of education. 06:34 So for example we have anti-bullying legislation 06:39 that is now being voted 06:42 in throughout the different provinces. 06:44 And the anti-bullying legislation 06:48 they all have a section in it 06:50 that deals with the LGBT community 06:53 which is lesbian, gay, bisexual, transvestite community. 06:57 And it includes, you know, 06:58 you're not allowed to bully that group. 07:00 But you have to show that you're proactively protecting them. 07:04 So your school has to have clubs 07:08 for a gays to support them and so on. 07:11 And these bumps up against private schools 07:14 who are Christian and it's a tremendous concern 07:17 and, you know, who knows when the conflict will arise. 07:21 But we're expecting it. 07:22 Some of these things are not so much unintended 07:24 consequences, but they're unfortunate consequences 07:28 to reasonable initial assumption. 07:31 Like bullying is a problem. 07:32 It has been a problem in the schools. 07:34 I can remember when I was a kid. 07:35 Yes, are you wanting to be against bullying? No. 07:38 So we would like to wipeout bullying, 07:39 but given that then there's an initiative against it 07:42 at the same time there is this rise 07:43 of rights for the gay community and they're able to- 07:46 To promote the lifestyle. 07:47 To use this, to create some difficulties for people 07:52 that have a moral position. 07:55 It's quite some years ago now since 07:56 when I started on Liberty Magazine 07:58 the hate crimes legislation was in emphasis same thing. 08:02 Of course there are hate crimes. 08:03 I was always troubled that there was an extraordinary 08:06 penalty or something as a hate crime 08:08 where it seems to like murder. 08:09 It's a hate crime inherently. So you'd- at a wider to it. 08:13 But hate crimes easily can be turned against people of faith 08:17 that speak things that non faith person 08:21 find inherently hateful 08:22 because it questions their moral viewpoint. 08:24 So it can easily turn into restriction of your ability 08:27 to speak morally do any situation. 08:30 And of course, there are frontrunners 08:32 that like that church that were inclined 08:36 to go to military funerals and shriek hateful things 08:39 about gays in the military and so on. 08:41 Those just give ammunition for people 08:43 and would accuse people of faith of having a view 08:47 that's prejudiced against these developing social norms. 08:52 So, you know, these court cases have clearly 08:54 put us on notice where we're going, 08:58 even though I think there is a reasonable legal logic 09:00 of what happened. 09:02 It's not totally bizarre, 09:04 but it's progressively taking us downer track 09:07 to conflict between people of faith 09:09 and perhaps even their church organization 09:11 that are in the state. 09:12 And especially there is conflict corporately speaking 09:17 because we're used to being protected 09:22 and indeed there are protections, 09:25 you know, exemptions for the corporate church structure. 09:29 In these situations but- 09:31 So you should think that church is more vulnerable? 09:33 I think the church is becoming more vulnerable. 09:35 I think that there is a backlash. 09:38 I think people and the courts are asking 09:41 or why should churches be exempt from the laws of the land 09:46 when everybody else is required with respect to discrimination 09:51 and to certain regulations or human rights codes. 09:54 Why should the church be exempt from that 09:56 or their corporate entities? 09:59 And it's a fair question and I think that it's a discussion 10:04 that its taking place in the courts 10:06 and at the legislative level now. 10:12 In ancient Greece, much weight was given 10:15 to what the oracle the different temples 10:18 would say in a given situation. 10:20 It was just not the common people 10:21 even the rulers would go to hear the oracles pronouncement. 10:25 In our age it seems that in the Untied States at least 10:29 that when the Supreme Court speaks 10:31 we listen to them as though there is an oracle on high. 10:34 Of course, it is an important institution 10:37 and in the three way balance of powers 10:40 between the executive, the legislative 10:42 and the judicial it's very important for good governance. 10:45 But when we are talking about something 10:47 like the defensive marriage act 10:49 and how the court treated it, 10:51 while the court's opinion is very important 10:53 I would look equally at what's going on in society, 10:57 and society is indeed changing 10:59 and Christians as they look at it 11:02 with clear undistorted moral vision 11:07 should realize the need is not legislative activism 11:10 or rebellion against the civil enactments. 11:13 It is what is needed is clear witness 11:17 and preaching of the grace of God 11:20 and the redemptive power of God in any situation 11:23 and the ability of any society to come back to God. 11:28 For Liberty Insider this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2014-12-17