Welcome back to
the "Liberty Insider."
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Before the break
with Grace Mackintosh,
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a lawyer and religious liberty
leader for the Canadian church-
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I was talking with you Grace
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about the recent
Supreme Court cases
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in particular their decision
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in the defensive
marriage act, putting it aside.
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But there was another
fairly similar well not similar
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but along the same
track they set aside
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or really agreed with the
lower court that it set aside
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a California initiative
called "Proposition 8".
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Yes. And I know
you've been following that.
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How would you
describe for our viewers.
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What
"Proposition 8" was all about.
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Well,
"Proposition 8" is basically
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refusing accept the
religious definition of marriage
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and having that
imposed on the state.
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And agreeing to much more
secular definition of marriage
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which would allow same
sex individuals to be married
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and the state would recognize
this relationship as dependant.
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And so benefits with
respective employment
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and insurance you
know could that follow.
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That will follow. Yeah.
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But "Proposition 8"
itself was an attempt by people
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with a biblical view of marriage
to define marriage by the state.
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And impose that
through legislation.
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Yes, so it was not
that different DOMA.
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DOMA was on the federal level
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and "Proposition 8" was in
California on the state level.
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And so the Supreme
Court, as I understand,
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it basically agreed with
the lower court that invalidated
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that saying I think
they had no standing.
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They didn't have a legal right
to even bring that forward.
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So the net effect of
both of these actions
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is to pretty much
clear the way for the state
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to advance gay marriages,
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you say, with all of
the privileges rights
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that come with that. Right.
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It's not really good
morally, but it hasn't changed.
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It seems to me the
legal landscape much
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because it's still
in the civil sphere.
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You know, the law administers it
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without reference to
religious prerogatives.
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But what you
know we were talking,
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we've talked
about this many times
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and what do you
think will happen
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from the
perspective of people of faith.
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What are we going to see
is it just the gay lifestyle
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and marriage and so on
that's going to be empowered
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or is there a blowback.
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Is it likely to
inhibit Christian practice?
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I believe it
will create a context
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within which a great
deal of conflict takes place.
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You have a
worldview that is presented
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by the state which
is in direct conflict
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with the
teachings of the church.
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And I'll just
give you an example of
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how that
conflict can take place.
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There is a story of the
catholic charities. All right.
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"The service arm of
the Roman Catholic Church
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glows its adoption
program in Massachusetts
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not because of the
states gay marriage law,
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but because of the gay
anti-discrimination law
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passed many years earlier.
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In fact the charity
had voluntarily placed
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older foster children in
gay and lesbian households,
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among those most willing to
take hard to place children.
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Until the church
hierarchy was alerted
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and demanded
that adoptions conform
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to the churches
religious teaching,
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which was in
conflict with the state law.
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The "Proposition 8" campaign
funded in large part by Mormons
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who were urged to
do so by their church
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does not mention
that the Mormon churches
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adoption arm in
Massachusetts is still operating
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even though it
does not place children
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and gay and lesbian households."
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And in Canada
this is the rollout.
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You know, when the
state takes this position.
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So you have a bed in breakfast.
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You're a Christian, you don't
want to put same sex individuals
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together in a room together.
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You don't want to put people
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who aren't married
together in a room.
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But your
practices and your teachings
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are now in conflict with law.
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And you have to choose
then you're going to run the bed
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and breakfast or not.
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And we had a case
in Ontario, Brockey
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and he ran a publishing company.
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And he was
approached to publish-
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I remember that.
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Documentation or
materials for a gay pride.
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I don't know if it was a parade
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but it was for something
that they were planning
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and he did not want to do that.
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Now his business practice is
in conflict with the state law,
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and provincial
law the federal law.
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And it seems to me
on some of these things
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there's a pro and a con.
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The person of
faith has every right
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to stand on
their faith principles.
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And the state has a reasonable,
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in fact they have an
obligation to administer
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equally in all cases laws
that are agreed by the state.
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And the best I can say is
that some of these situations
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where a person of faith
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has to stand on their
faith and expect troubles.
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I'm not arguing
against this totally,
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but it brings up the view
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that I have long believed
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that there are
certain situations
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inherent in
taking a faith commitment
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where there going
to be difficulties.
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Jesus said, "All
who live a Godly life
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will suffer persecution."
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And particularly
in the United States
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where there has been
this conflation of godliness
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and the role of a
Godly state or a moral state.
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And people think
that every difficulty
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should be swept
away before them.
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We can't do that as
Christians in every case.
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And we need to recognize
there are dark clouds ahead
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where you going to
have stand on your faith
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and take some consequences.
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And it's certainly not
what we find in the Bible
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from beginning
to end. Absolutely.
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It was a trouble that
faced people of faith.
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But when a
state takes a position
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and is in direct conflict
with the teachings of the church
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you are constantly
bumping up against that.
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I think there's some
rocky roads ahead, rocky road,
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rocky situation lot of
bumps using that figure.
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In Canada, a lot
of the bumps end up
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happening in within
the context of education.
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So for example we have
anti-bullying legislation
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that is now being voted
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in throughout the
different provinces.
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And the
anti-bullying legislation
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they all have a section in it
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that deals with
the LGBT community
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which is lesbian, gay, bisexual,
transvestite community.
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And it includes, you know,
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you're not allowed
to bully that group.
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But you have to show that you're
proactively protecting them.
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So your school has to have clubs
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for a gays to
support them and so on.
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And these bumps up
against private schools
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who are Christian and
it's a tremendous concern
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and, you know, who knows
when the conflict will arise.
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But we're expecting it.
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Some of these things
are not so much unintended
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consequences, but
they're unfortunate consequences
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to reasonable
initial assumption.
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Like bullying is a problem.
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It has been a
problem in the schools.
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I can remember when I was a kid.
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Yes, are you wanting to
be against bullying? No.
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So we would like
to wipeout bullying,
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but given that then
there's an initiative against it
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at the same time
there is this rise
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of rights for the gay
community and they're able to-
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To promote the lifestyle.
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To use this, to create
some difficulties for people
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that have a moral position.
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It's quite some
years ago now since
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when I started
on Liberty Magazine
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the hate crimes legislation
was in emphasis same thing.
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Of course there are hate crimes.
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I was always troubled
that there was an extraordinary
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penalty or
something as a hate crime
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where it seems to like murder.
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It's a hate crime inherently.
So you'd- at a wider to it.
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But hate crimes easily can be
turned against people of faith
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that speak things
that non faith person
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find inherently hateful
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because it questions
their moral viewpoint.
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So it can easily turn into
restriction of your ability
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to speak morally
do any situation.
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And of course,
there are frontrunners
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that like that
church that were inclined
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to go to military funerals
and shriek hateful things
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about gays in the
military and so on.
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Those just give
ammunition for people
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and would accuse people
of faith of having a view
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that's prejudiced against
these developing social norms.
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So, you know, these
court cases have clearly
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put us on notice
where we're going,
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even though I think there
is a reasonable legal logic
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of what happened.
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It's not totally bizarre,
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but it's progressively
taking us downer track
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to conflict
between people of faith
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and perhaps even
their church organization
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that are in the state.
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And especially there is
conflict corporately speaking
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because we're
used to being protected
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and indeed
there are protections,
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you know, exemptions for
the corporate church structure.
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In these situations but-
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So you should think that
church is more vulnerable?
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I think the church is
becoming more vulnerable.
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I think that
there is a backlash.
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I think people and
the courts are asking
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or why should churches be
exempt from the laws of the land
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when everybody else is required
with respect to discrimination
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and to certain regulations
or human rights codes.
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Why should the
church be exempt from that
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or their corporate entities?
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And it's a fair question and
I think that it's a discussion
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that its taking
place in the courts
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and at the
legislative level now.
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In ancient Greece,
much weight was given
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to what the oracle
the different temples
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would say in a given situation.
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It was just not
the common people
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even the rulers would go to
hear the oracles pronouncement.
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In our age it seems that
in the Untied States at least
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that when the
Supreme Court speaks
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we listen to them as though
there is an oracle on high.
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Of course, it is an
important institution
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and in the three
way balance of powers
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between the
executive, the legislative
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and the judicial it's very
important for good governance.
00:10:42.16\00:10:45.69
But when we are
talking about something
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like the defensive marriage act
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and how the court treated it,
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while the court's
opinion is very important
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I would look equally at
what's going on in society,
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and society is indeed changing
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and Christians
as they look at it
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with clear
undistorted moral vision
00:11:02.18\00:11:07.11
should realize the need
is not legislative activism
00:11:07.14\00:11:10.87
or rebellion against
the civil enactments.
00:11:10.90\00:11:13.83
It is what is
needed is clear witness
00:11:13.86\00:11:17.37
and preaching
of the grace of God
00:11:17.40\00:11:20.81
and the redemptive
power of God in any situation
00:11:20.84\00:11:23.94
and the ability of any
society to come back to God.
00:11:23.97\00:11:28.70
For Liberty Insider
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:11:28.73\00:11:31.95