Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Grace Mackintosh
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000222A
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00:23 Welcome to the "Liberty Insider."
00:25 This is a program that brings you news, views and discussion 00:28 on religious liberty events in the United States 00:31 but around the world as well. 00:32 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty Magazine. 00:36 And my guest on the program is Grace Macintosh, 00:40 public affairs and religious liberty director 00:42 for the Seventh-day Adventist Church in Canada. 00:44 That's for starters. I know you have a few other titles. 00:46 You're a lawyer. Yes. 00:49 And very much upon what's happening on religious liberty 00:52 and legal affairs in Canada, but I know another places. 00:55 You and I have often spoken at great length 00:58 about some of the things that are going on. 01:00 And so I want to test you on this program. 01:03 There's a very important or much discussed Supreme Court case 01:10 that's just recently come out. 01:12 It was action first of all. Well, it's really two cases. 01:15 But first of all on defensive marriage act. 01:19 This was passed back in the Clinton administration. 01:22 And it was part of the efforts by mostly people of faith, 01:26 but people of the different reasons that were objecting 01:28 to the advancement of the gay agenda. 01:31 And so they passed an act called the Defensive Marriage Act 01:34 that was designed to define marriages 01:37 only between a man and woman. 01:39 Do you remember that? Yes. 01:41 And that was fine, but I was felt a little bit uncomfortable 01:46 that it was an attempt by people to sort of 01:49 project their faith view into law quickly 01:54 to stop people of other views from passing other laws. 01:57 So it was sort of an end run rather than 02:00 you and I have talked about this before. 02:02 I think the Seventh-day Adventist church 02:03 years and years ago was very much involved with temperance, 02:06 educating the public against alcohol and tobacco 02:09 and seeking legislation 02:12 to protect people from these things. 02:15 And the result was an amendment of the constitution, 02:20 prohibition amendment. 02:21 I'm not sure, that that's what they all wanted. 02:23 But in this case it's very clearly 02:26 a projection of religious values, 02:28 in fact the doctrinal viewpoint. Right 02:31 And so what did the Supreme Court do? 02:32 I know you seen the action. 02:35 They did something that should have been expected, 02:38 but seems to have shocked people. 02:39 Well, they've repealed DOMA. 02:41 They repealed DOMA. Yeah. 02:44 And, you know, now everybody seems to be upset 02:48 and talk about judicial activism. 02:50 But I'm a little bit mystified 02:52 because by my likes this court under, 02:57 under Supreme Court Chief Justice Roberts 03:01 is tilting toward the conservative side. 03:04 So I wouldn't call it a liberal court. No. 03:08 And so they've offended the conservatives 03:12 and yes it's a very close thing. 03:14 It's 5-4. So it's no mandate for any particular view. 03:18 But I think myself they got cautious 03:22 when they looked at legally realizing 03:24 that they were on enchanted ground 03:27 to endorse a law that really had a religious agenda. 03:33 Well, in Canada when we were considering marriage 03:36 and changing it's definition constitutionally, 03:39 there was a discussion amongst the legal council 03:43 that were Christian as well as clergy. 03:46 And the thought was, well, why don't we just 03:49 get out of the marriage business, 03:51 religiously speaking? 03:53 And let to a government deal with the benefits 03:55 flowing from dependant relationship, 03:59 you know, framed as marriage 04:01 and we're not going to have anything to do with it. 04:03 We'll just hand in all our licensing for marriages. 04:07 We'll have this ceremony in the church 04:09 but we're going to get out of the business 04:11 and just let government deal with it, 04:13 which I think wasn't a bad idea. 04:19 Yeah, I'm glad you've said that because I was hearing too. 04:22 To me and we're getting on 04:25 to a larger discussion of marriage here, 04:27 but marriage as the church sees it 04:30 and as it derives from God's institution of marriage in Eden. 04:36 That's a spiritual contract before God. 04:39 That's a sacrament, isn't it? Yeah, it's a sacrament. 04:42 Marriage as the state determines it. 04:44 It's for the propagation of society. 04:48 It's for the smooth running of relationships 04:51 and upbringing of family and so on. But it's- 04:53 Division of assets. Absolutely. 04:56 It's contractual and civil. 04:57 It's not on that spiritual level. Exactly. 05:00 And it can't make a person of faith comfortable 05:04 when they see the state administering these sorts of 05:06 arrangements in ways that confrustrate or even deny 05:12 what we would try to do before God. 05:15 But it's not one and the same. They are in another sphere. 05:18 And as long as the church is able to continue to administer 05:23 and sanctify a relationship that has a spiritual basis. 05:29 Then there is no direct threat to the church 05:31 and we need to pray for the state. 05:33 We need to witness the state. 05:34 We need to work to educate our fellow citizens 05:37 so that they may move closer to a biblical model. 05:41 But I'm very uncomfortable 05:43 as this DOMA thing originally tried to do, 05:45 for Christian who are activated, politically they try to, 05:48 you know, make the knockout punch 05:49 or the end run or whatever to change 05:52 and otherwise unpersuaded civil society. 05:54 But even if they were persuaded 05:57 the best case should have something 05:58 like some of these Islamic countries 06:01 where there is an overwhelming Muslim majority 06:05 and they put in law, 06:07 stuff that comes straight from the Koran. 06:09 That's a total amalgamation of church and state. 06:12 And if you want to look to scriptures for direction- 06:16 when I look at Romans 13, Paul tells me the last Six 06:21 well Five Commandments are in within the authority. 06:27 They are in the realm of the authority of the state. 06:29 If the state wants to decide this is a marriage 06:33 as far as I'm concerned Romans 13 06:35 it says they have the right to do it. 06:37 I mean not be the best decision, 06:39 but that's what I see that they have the authority to do it. 06:43 So why would we, you know 06:45 try to make efforts to go against that. Yeah. 06:50 You know, that's philosophical divide on the Commandments. 06:52 Sometimes I'm not comfortable with it. 06:54 Other times I think it's reasonable 06:55 because what's very plain is those 06:58 First Commandments of the Ten Commandments 07:01 directly relate to an individual's relationship 07:04 and loyalty to God. 07:06 In the Abrahamic context as well. 07:09 And the things like you shall not steal and so on. 07:11 These are human interaction 07:13 which every state has a concern on this sort of things. 07:17 Although again going to the Islamic thing, 07:21 you know, against stealing too, 07:22 but they take straight from the Koran. 07:25 Well, actually not from the Koran, 07:26 from the Sharia law 07:29 and these and other holy writings 07:33 the prescription for cutting of hands and so on. 07:35 Well, that's not a civil law really that's a religious law 07:39 executed through a civil manner 07:41 and quite medieval for some of us looking on. 07:44 But I want to share something 07:46 and this I have never done this before in a program. 07:48 One reason is that I have trouble reading 07:50 without reading glasses. 07:52 But as I told you as we've planning 07:54 so I wanted to share with our viewers 07:57 a few sentences written in a book 08:02 called the Desire of Ages by Ellen White, 08:04 the Seventh-day Adventist pioneer writer 08:07 and she was a visionary. 08:09 Seventh-day Adventist believe, as you know 08:12 and believe that Ellen White on occasion 08:16 was given illumination, heavenly illumination 08:18 in much the same way in Bible prophets. 08:20 And we were all told in the book of Joel 08:23 that God's spirit will move through people 08:25 even up to the end of time. They will see visions. 08:28 But this, she wrote without that sort of authority 08:31 she wrote this is a biblical expositor 08:33 writing about the life of Christ. 08:36 And I'd like to share this very interesting statement. 08:40 She says, "Today in the religious world 08:43 there are multitudes who, as they believe, 08:47 are working for the establishment 08:49 of the kingdom of Christ 08:50 as an earthly and temporal dominion." 08:53 Some of the same people I think were behind DOMA. 08:58 "They desire to make our Lord, 08:59 the ruler of the kingdoms of this world, 09:01 the ruler in its courts and camps, 09:03 its legislative halls, its palaces and market places. 09:07 They expect him to rule through legal enactments, 09:10 enforced by human authority. 09:12 Since Christ is not now here in person, 09:15 they themselves." And this is the catch. 09:17 "They themselves will undertake to act in His stead, 09:20 to execute the laws of His kingdom. 09:23 The establishment of such a kingdom 09:25 is what the Jews desired in the days of Christ. 09:27 They would have received Jesus, 09:29 had He been willing to establish a temporal dominion, 09:33 to enforce what they regarded as the laws of God, 09:35 and to make them the expositors of His will 09:38 and the agents of His authority. 09:40 But He said, of course, and we all know this in John 18:36. 09:43 "My kingdom is not of this world." 09:45 Now this is the real crux of what I want to share here. 09:50 She says the government under which 09:52 Jesus lived was corrupt and oppressive. 09:56 On every hand were crying abuses, 09:58 extortion, intolerance, and grinding cruelty. 10:03 Yet the Savior attempted no civil reforms. 10:06 He attacked no national abuses, 10:08 nor condemned the national enemies. 10:10 He did not interfere with the authority 10:12 or administration of those in power. 10:15 He who was our example kept aloof from earthly governments. 10:19 Not because He was indifferent to the woes of men, 10:22 but because the remedy did not lie 10:25 in merely human and external measures. 10:28 To be efficient," she says and this is very insightful, 10:31 "the cure must reach men individually, 10:34 and must regenerate the heart." 10:36 What's that statement, you know, 10:37 someone persuaded against their will as I'm persuaded to her. 10:43 Legislation of ceremony and ritual creates hypocrites. 10:48 Absolutely, and then I want to give a few more sentences 10:51 and this is the end of the quote 10:52 which comes from page 508 of the book Desire of Ages, 10:56 and part of it goes till 510. 10:59 And she says, "Not by the decisions of courts 11:01 or councils or legislative assemblies, 11:04 not by the patronage of worldly great men, 11:07 is the kingdom of Christ established, 11:09 but by the implanting of Christ's nature in humanity 11:12 through the work of the Holy Spirit." 11:15 It's pretty much what we were just saying. 11:17 The courts and councils, legislative 11:19 not by those measures. 11:20 You can't substitute legislative action from our regeneration. 11:25 And let's clearly what Christians 11:27 and people of other great faiths want in society- 11:30 they want moral regeneration. 11:32 And as we look at as you and I and others of like minders 11:36 we've to look at moves toward empowering 11:39 and even giving some privileges to gay lifestyle. 11:43 You know, we wish the best for those human beings 11:45 but we're affronted by the moral shift that represents. 11:50 But if we care for those people, 11:52 if we care for our fellow men 11:53 we can't force our view on them. 11:55 Can we? No. 11:56 And it's an antithesis of liberty, religiously. Right. 12:02 At the end of the day government is forced 12:04 that's what the civil power is. 12:06 As Paul says "the wield the sword not in vain." 12:09 They are these ones wielding the sword. 12:11 Christians at a wield the sword of the spirit, 12:14 conviction of ideas and of the mind. 12:17 So we really should be careful 12:19 to keep our endeavors on that level. 12:21 And I'm afraid and this is an opinion 12:23 because this is somewhat different. 12:26 But I think DOMA and the proposed amendment, 12:31 marriage amendment that never got off the ground. 12:34 Those sorts of things are ill advised. 12:35 They're really crossing over into 12:38 basically picking up like Peter, 12:40 picking up the sword at that moment of conflict. 12:43 And there's a better way to deal with that in the end. 12:46 It might appear weak as you get into the struggle, 12:49 but as Jesus said you take up that sword 12:52 you'll die by that sword. 12:54 And if we try to push a legislative initiative 12:58 to support our Christianity legislative initiative 13:01 to restrict our Christianity can easily come back. 13:04 It's counterintuitive to what scripture tells us. 13:08 And the directions and what we see here 13:12 that it was a Christ's example. Absolutely. 13:15 I mean we were given directions in Isaiah 58, 13:19 how do we regenerate the human heart. 13:22 You got a text there. I do its. 13:24 "It's to deal your bread to the hungry. 13:26 To bring the poor that are cast out to your house, 13:29 when you see the naked to cover them, 13:31 don't hide yourself from your own flesh 13:33 then shall your life break forth as the morning. 13:36 And your health and your righteousness 13:39 will go before thee." 13:40 This is what she was talking about. 13:42 "The cure must reach man individually. 13:44 And regenerate the heart." Yeah. 13:47 I have often pointed out talking about the United States 13:50 and you're from Canada, I'm originally from the US. 13:53 But we are in the American context so often here. 13:57 And America more than many countries 14:00 since it's a large dominant country at the moment, 14:02 they're most concerned with power 14:04 and energy and blessing 14:06 because religion and civil thinking are often mixed up. 14:11 And they want greatness again. 14:13 And what I believe is greatness comes 14:16 from integrity and the population. 14:19 And if we are able to communicate 14:22 spiritual values to the society, 14:24 it will turn back the natural punishments 14:28 if you like bad actions. 14:30 It can make the nation great again by moral greatness. 14:33 But it comes within not by legislation. 14:36 We'll be back after a short break 14:37 to continue this discussion. 14:39 Stay with us. |
Revised 2014-12-17