Welcome to the
"Liberty Insider."
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This is a program that brings
you news, views and discussion
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on religious liberty
events in the United States
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but around the world as well.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty Magazine.
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And my guest on the
program is Grace Macintosh,
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public affairs and
religious liberty director
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for the Seventh-day
Adventist Church in Canada.
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That's for starters. I know
you have a few other titles.
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You're a lawyer. Yes.
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And very much upon what's
happening on religious liberty
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and legal affairs in Canada,
but I know another places.
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You and I have often
spoken at great length
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about some of the
things that are going on.
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And so I want to
test you on this program.
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There's a very important or much
discussed Supreme Court case
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that's just recently come out.
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It was action first of all.
Well, it's really two cases.
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But first of all on
defensive marriage act.
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This was passed back in
the Clinton administration.
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And it was part of the efforts
by mostly people of faith,
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but people of the different
reasons that were objecting
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to the
advancement of the gay agenda.
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And so they passed an act called
the Defensive Marriage Act
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that was designed
to define marriages
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only between a man and woman.
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Do you remember that? Yes.
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And that was fine, but I was
felt a little bit uncomfortable
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that it was an
attempt by people to sort of
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project their faith
view into law quickly
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to stop people of other
views from passing other laws.
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So it was sort of
an end run rather than
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you and I have
talked about this before.
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I think the
Seventh-day Adventist church
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years and years ago was very
much involved with temperance,
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educating the public
against alcohol and tobacco
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and seeking legislation
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to protect people
from these things.
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And the result was an
amendment of the constitution,
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prohibition amendment.
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I'm not sure, that
that's what they all wanted.
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But in this case
it's very clearly
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a projection of
religious values,
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in fact the
doctrinal viewpoint. Right
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And so what did
the Supreme Court do?
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I know you seen the action.
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They did something that
should have been expected,
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but seems to
have shocked people.
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Well, they've repealed DOMA.
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They repealed DOMA. Yeah.
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And, you know, now
everybody seems to be upset
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and talk about
judicial activism.
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But I'm a little bit mystified
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because by my
likes this court under,
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under Supreme Court
Chief Justice Roberts
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is tilting toward
the conservative side.
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So I wouldn't call
it a liberal court. No.
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And so they've
offended the conservatives
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and yes it's a very close thing.
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It's 5-4. So it's no
mandate for any particular view.
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But I think
myself they got cautious
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when they looked
at legally realizing
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that they were
on enchanted ground
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to endorse a law that
really had a religious agenda.
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Well, in Canada when we
were considering marriage
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and changing it's
definition constitutionally,
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there was a discussion
amongst the legal council
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that were
Christian as well as clergy.
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And the thought was,
well, why don't we just
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get out of the
marriage business,
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religiously speaking?
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And let to a government
deal with the benefits
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flowing from
dependant relationship,
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you know, framed as marriage
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and we're not going to
have anything to do with it.
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We'll just hand in all
our licensing for marriages.
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We'll have this
ceremony in the church
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but we're going to
get out of the business
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and just let
government deal with it,
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which I think wasn't a bad idea.
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Yeah, I'm glad you've said
that because I was hearing too.
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To me and we're getting on
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to a larger
discussion of marriage here,
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but marriage as
the church sees it
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and as it derives from God's
institution of marriage in Eden.
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That's a spiritual
contract before God.
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That's a sacrament, isn't
it? Yeah, it's a sacrament.
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Marriage as the
state determines it.
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It's for the
propagation of society.
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It's for the smooth
running of relationships
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and upbringing of
family and so on. But it's-
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Division of assets. Absolutely.
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It's contractual and civil.
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It's not on that
spiritual level. Exactly.
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And it can't make a
person of faith comfortable
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when they see the state
administering these sorts of
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arrangements in ways
that confrustrate or even deny
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what we would
try to do before God.
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But it's not one and the same.
They are in another sphere.
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And as long as the church is
able to continue to administer
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and sanctify a relationship
that has a spiritual basis.
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Then there is no
direct threat to the church
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and we need to
pray for the state.
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We need to witness the state.
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We need to work to
educate our fellow citizens
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so that they may move
closer to a biblical model.
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But I'm very uncomfortable
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as this DOMA thing
originally tried to do,
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for Christian who are activated,
politically they try to,
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you know, make
the knockout punch
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or the end run or
whatever to change
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and otherwise
unpersuaded civil society.
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But even if they were persuaded
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the best case
should have something
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like some of
these Islamic countries
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where there is an
overwhelming Muslim majority
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and they put in law,
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stuff that comes
straight from the Koran.
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That's a total amalgamation
of church and state.
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And if you want to look
to scriptures for direction-
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when I look at Romans 13,
Paul tells me the last Six
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well Five Commandments
are in within the authority.
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They are in the realm of
the authority of the state.
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If the state wants to
decide this is a marriage
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as far as I'm
concerned Romans 13
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it says they have
the right to do it.
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I mean not be the best decision,
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but that's what I see that they
have the authority to do it.
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So why would we, you know
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try to make efforts
to go against that. Yeah.
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You know, that's philosophical
divide on the Commandments.
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Sometimes I'm not
comfortable with it.
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Other times I
think it's reasonable
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because what's
very plain is those
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First Commandments
of the Ten Commandments
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directly relate to an
individual's relationship
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and loyalty to God.
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In the
Abrahamic context as well.
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And the things like you
shall not steal and so on.
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These are human interaction
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which every state has a
concern on this sort of things.
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Although again going
to the Islamic thing,
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you know, against stealing too,
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but they take
straight from the Koran.
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Well, actually
not from the Koran,
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from the Sharia law
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and these and
other holy writings
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the prescription for
cutting of hands and so on.
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Well, that's not a civil law
really that's a religious law
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executed through a civil manner
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and quite medieval
for some of us looking on.
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But I want to share something
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and this I have never
done this before in a program.
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One reason is that
I have trouble reading
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without reading glasses.
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But as I told
you as we've planning
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so I wanted to
share with our viewers
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a few sentences
written in a book
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called the Desire
of Ages by Ellen White,
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the Seventh-day
Adventist pioneer writer
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and she was a visionary.
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Seventh-day
Adventist believe, as you know
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and believe that
Ellen White on occasion
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was given illumination,
heavenly illumination
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in much the same
way in Bible prophets.
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And we were all
told in the book of Joel
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that God's spirit
will move through people
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even up to the end of
time. They will see visions.
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But this, she wrote
without that sort of authority
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she wrote this is
a biblical expositor
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writing about
the life of Christ.
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And I'd like to share this
very interesting statement.
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She says, "Today
in the religious world
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there are multitudes
who, as they believe,
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are working for
the establishment
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of the kingdom of Christ
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as an earthly and
temporal dominion."
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Some of the same people
I think were behind DOMA.
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"They desire to make our Lord,
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the ruler of the
kingdoms of this world,
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the ruler in its
courts and camps,
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its legislative halls,
its palaces and market places.
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They expect him to rule
through legal enactments,
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enforced by human authority.
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Since Christ is
not now here in person,
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they themselves."
And this is the catch.
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"They themselves will
undertake to act in His stead,
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to execute the
laws of His kingdom.
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The
establishment of such a kingdom
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is what the Jews
desired in the days of Christ.
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They would have received Jesus,
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had He been willing to
establish a temporal dominion,
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to enforce what they
regarded as the laws of God,
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and to make them the
expositors of His will
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and the agents of His authority.
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But He said, of course, and
we all know this in John 18:36.
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"My kingdom is
not of this world."
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Now this is the real crux
of what I want to share here.
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She says the
government under which
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Jesus lived was
corrupt and oppressive.
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On every hand
were crying abuses,
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extortion, intolerance,
and grinding cruelty.
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Yet the Savior
attempted no civil reforms.
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He attacked no national abuses,
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nor condemned
the national enemies.
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He did not
interfere with the authority
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or administration
of those in power.
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He who was our example kept
aloof from earthly governments.
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Not because He was
indifferent to the woes of men,
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but because the
remedy did not lie
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in merely human
and external measures.
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To be efficient," she says
and this is very insightful,
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"the cure must
reach men individually,
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and must regenerate the heart."
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What's that statement, you know,
00:10:36.59\00:10:37.71
someone persuaded against their
will as I'm persuaded to her.
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Legislation of ceremony
and ritual creates hypocrites.
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Absolutely, and then I want
to give a few more sentences
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and this is the end of the quote
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which comes from page 508
of the book Desire of Ages,
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and part of it goes till 510.
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And she says, "Not by
the decisions of courts
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or councils or
legislative assemblies,
00:11:01.32\00:11:04.22
not by the patronage
of worldly great men,
00:11:04.25\00:11:06.99
is the kingdom of
Christ established,
00:11:07.02\00:11:09.06
but by the implanting of
Christ's nature in humanity
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through the work
of the Holy Spirit."
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It's pretty much
what we were just saying.
00:11:15.61\00:11:17.50
The courts and
councils, legislative
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not by those measures.
00:11:19.22\00:11:20.91
You can't substitute legislative
action from our regeneration.
00:11:20.94\00:11:25.92
And let's
clearly what Christians
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and people of other
great faiths want in society-
00:11:27.97\00:11:30.50
they want moral regeneration.
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And as we look at as you
and I and others of like minders
00:11:32.76\00:11:36.22
we've to look at
moves toward empowering
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and even giving some
privileges to gay lifestyle.
00:11:39.83\00:11:43.16
You know, we wish the
best for those human beings
00:11:43.19\00:11:45.54
but we're affronted by the
moral shift that represents.
00:11:45.57\00:11:50.45
But if we care for those people,
00:11:50.48\00:11:51.98
if we care for our fellow men
00:11:52.01\00:11:53.14
we can't force our view on them.
00:11:53.17\00:11:55.47
Can we? No.
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And it's an antithesis of
liberty, religiously. Right.
00:11:56.68\00:12:02.10
At the end of the
day government is forced
00:12:02.13\00:12:04.72
that's what the civil power is.
00:12:04.75\00:12:06.62
As Paul says "the
wield the sword not in vain."
00:12:06.65\00:12:09.08
They are these
ones wielding the sword.
00:12:09.11\00:12:10.98
Christians at a wield
the sword of the spirit,
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conviction of
ideas and of the mind.
00:12:14.00\00:12:16.97
So we really should be careful
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to keep our
endeavors on that level.
00:12:19.45\00:12:21.68
And I'm afraid
and this is an opinion
00:12:21.71\00:12:23.91
because this is
somewhat different.
00:12:23.94\00:12:26.08
But I think DOMA and
the proposed amendment,
00:12:26.11\00:12:31.73
marriage amendment that
never got off the ground.
00:12:31.76\00:12:34.05
Those sorts of
things are ill advised.
00:12:34.08\00:12:35.90
They're really
crossing over into
00:12:35.93\00:12:38.30
basically picking up like Peter,
00:12:38.33\00:12:40.58
picking up the sword at
that moment of conflict.
00:12:40.61\00:12:43.76
And there's a better way
to deal with that in the end.
00:12:43.79\00:12:46.66
It might appear weak as
you get into the struggle,
00:12:46.69\00:12:49.55
but as Jesus said
you take up that sword
00:12:49.58\00:12:52.91
you'll die by that sword.
00:12:52.94\00:12:54.16
And if we try to push
a legislative initiative
00:12:54.19\00:12:58.24
to support our Christianity
legislative initiative
00:12:58.27\00:13:01.27
to restrict our Christianity
can easily come back.
00:13:01.30\00:13:04.89
It's counterintuitive
to what scripture tells us.
00:13:04.92\00:13:08.74
And the directions
and what we see here
00:13:08.77\00:13:12.17
that it was a
Christ's example. Absolutely.
00:13:12.20\00:13:15.14
I mean we were given
directions in Isaiah 58,
00:13:15.17\00:13:19.62
how do we
regenerate the human heart.
00:13:19.65\00:13:22.23
You got a text there. I do its.
00:13:22.26\00:13:24.04
"It's to deal your
bread to the hungry.
00:13:24.07\00:13:26.49
To bring the poor that
are cast out to your house,
00:13:26.52\00:13:29.59
when you see the
naked to cover them,
00:13:29.62\00:13:31.85
don't hide
yourself from your own flesh
00:13:31.88\00:13:33.84
then shall your life
break forth as the morning.
00:13:33.87\00:13:36.46
And your health
and your righteousness
00:13:36.49\00:13:39.62
will go before thee."
00:13:39.65\00:13:40.68
This is what she
was talking about.
00:13:40.71\00:13:42.37
"The cure must
reach man individually.
00:13:42.40\00:13:44.78
And regenerate the heart." Yeah.
00:13:44.81\00:13:47.01
I have often pointed out
talking about the United States
00:13:47.04\00:13:50.62
and you're from Canada,
I'm originally from the US.
00:13:50.65\00:13:53.92
But we are in the
American context so often here.
00:13:53.95\00:13:57.56
And America more
than many countries
00:13:57.59\00:13:59.99
since it's a large
dominant country at the moment,
00:14:00.02\00:14:02.42
they're most
concerned with power
00:14:02.45\00:14:04.80
and energy and blessing
00:14:04.83\00:14:06.33
because religion and civil
thinking are often mixed up.
00:14:06.36\00:14:11.46
And they want greatness again.
00:14:11.49\00:14:13.08
And what I
believe is greatness comes
00:14:13.11\00:14:16.58
from integrity
and the population.
00:14:16.61\00:14:19.68
And if we are
able to communicate
00:14:19.71\00:14:22.56
spiritual values to the society,
00:14:22.59\00:14:24.82
it will turn back
the natural punishments
00:14:24.85\00:14:28.85
if you like bad actions.
00:14:28.88\00:14:30.78
It can make the nation
great again by moral greatness.
00:14:30.81\00:14:33.70
But it comes
within not by legislation.
00:14:33.73\00:14:36.19
We'll be back
after a short break
00:14:36.22\00:14:37.68
to continue this discussion.
00:14:37.71\00:14:39.13
Stay with us.
00:14:39.16\00:14:40.41