Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Imam Shamshad A. Nasir
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000221A
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00:22 Welcome to the "Liberty Insider."
00:25 This is the program bringing you news, views, 00:27 information, discussion and I believe deep inside 00:30 it's an occasion in to religious liberty events 00:33 in the United States but around the world as well. 00:36 My guest on the program is Imam from Chino, California. 00:43 Welcome. Thank you very much, my friend. 00:46 And I think of you last name Nasir but its-- 00:48 Imam Shamshad Nasir. Shamshad Nasir. 00:51 Yes. 00:52 This is a great privilege to talk to you 00:54 and you've got some obviously your expertise is 00:57 Islamic theology particularly the Ahmadiyya Community 01:00 that you belong to. Muslim community, yeah. 01:05 Let's--now look far, far of field, 01:06 you wrote an article for Liberty Magazine, 01:09 well back on a news event where the-- 01:14 the head cleric in Mecca, Saudi Arabia. 01:17 Mufti. Mufti. 01:18 Yeah. 01:19 Which is the theologian, right? Right. 01:21 The spiritual leader and the theological expert, 01:24 he got up there in the mosque and an incredible diatribe 01:29 said that, all of the non-Muslim, 01:33 Churches or structures should be torn down. 01:35 Wasn't that what he said? 01:37 Some of you did affect. Yes. 01:40 We were the people Ahmadiyya Muslim Community 01:43 also condemned this of his statement 01:48 because although he has a great and grand title 01:53 like Mufti, in Saudi Arabia, Mecca 01:56 but the teaching or the verdict, 02:01 Fatwa in Arabic which he give was not right at all. 02:05 It does not match with the teaching 02:08 of the prophet of Islam, the teaching of the Holy Quran. 02:11 And--the reason is simple reason is, 02:14 Islam is the champion of freedom. 02:17 In the time of the Holy Prophet Peace 02:18 be on him, a delegate from Najran 02:22 came and after the dialogue 02:24 when they wanted to go outside for their prayer, 02:26 worship, the Prophet of Islam 02:29 allowed them to say prayer their own prayer, 02:33 Christian in their own mosque. 02:35 How he can say that all this should be torn down. 02:39 I have with me this chapter of freedom 02:43 granted to all Christians. 02:45 It is the statement of the Prophet of Islam Mohammed 02:48 peace be on him. 02:49 I want to read couple of words from that. 02:51 That's pretty long. Yeah. 02:52 Let's just read a little-- Right. 02:53 Sample from this. Yes. 02:54 I was looking at it earlier. 02:56 It's a long statement. Yes. 02:57 He said I promise that any monk 02:59 or referrer who will seek my help 03:02 on the mountains in forest, 03:04 desert or habitations or in place of worship, 03:08 I will repel his enemies with all my friends 03:12 and helpers. 03:14 And then he says that no bishop will be expelled 03:17 from his bishop nor no monk from his monastery, 03:22 no priest from his place of worship. 03:24 How he can torn down all the places of worship. 03:27 Islam is the one who protect not only mosques, 03:30 places of worship of the Muslims but Synagogue, 03:34 Churches and all places. 03:36 Islam protect them. 03:37 Now in many Muslim countries where they were 03:40 other religions when they came in, 03:43 didn't--was common practice to levy religious tax 03:47 on non-believers, wasn't it? 03:49 No, it was not the-- 03:50 Did that start with Mohammed or-- 03:52 No, no, it is not religious tax, you know, 03:54 in that-- 03:55 Its Demmi--isn't it? 03:57 Yeah, Jizya. 03:58 You know, in that time it was not governments 04:01 like today all organized. 04:03 You have special funds for the military. 04:06 That time to protect the rights of minorities 04:10 or other faith, this was taken from them, 04:13 for their protection. 04:14 For the protection only because to employee 04:19 the soldiers and army things like that it was used 04:23 for them not only money-- 04:25 Yeah, I guess protection money but you are right, 04:27 the context can't be directly acquitted with today. 04:31 Now you have to pay tax for everything 04:33 that time there was no. 04:34 The tax is--even you are paying, I am paying, 04:37 children are paying, men are paying, women, 04:39 everybody is paying tax. 04:41 So this was that tax. Yeah. 04:43 I mean, these are agreeable statements 04:45 and I was aware of that. 04:46 That was a good statement. 04:47 So where does that leave the--the Mufti and-- 04:51 Room for the Mufti to teach like that. 04:54 He was the recognized authority and he makes 04:56 this pronouncement of Fatwa, I always thought 04:58 of a Fatwa as a--it's a little bit like with the 05:03 pope's speaks like procedure-- 05:04 this is a formal religious statement. 05:06 Of course, that is your right, that is authority. 05:09 But I am sorry to say, that this was not right 05:14 and this is not Islam teaching. 05:16 And in that my article you know, I gave some extra example 05:20 also that you know, worship is also very important 05:25 and very important for each and every believer 05:29 have to worship. 05:30 Some of the Mufti given the same kind of verdict 05:34 against those people who do not worship the God. 05:36 They say, you have to teach them 05:38 if they don't understand you kill them. 05:40 I have the books, their verdicts, 05:42 they want to kill even those who-- 05:44 So where do they get this from then? 05:46 If its not the--I am not saying its Quran, 05:48 but if it's not the Quran, what-- 05:50 God knows the best from where they are getting these. 05:52 This is just deep seeded prejudice 05:54 that no one has corrected them on. 05:58 May be they are but they have their own views, 06:01 points, understanding of the Quranic teaching 06:04 and--but to our Ahmadiyya Muslim Community 06:07 understand that Islam is not like that. 06:10 That even you don't worship God, you just kill them, 06:12 this is not the way. 06:14 I think I will again repeat my statements 06:18 which I have done some other time in the program 06:21 also that these are the errors 06:24 which are getting among the Muslims. 06:26 Yeah. 06:27 So this is the reason Ahmadiyya Muslim stand, 06:29 is founder stand to correct all the errors. 06:32 And I know I do believe that these are distortions 06:36 or exaggerations may be is a bit of--I would be more-- 06:40 these are exaggerations of Islamic teaching. 06:45 Yes, they shouldn't be. 06:47 I was amazed even to read that those people 06:52 who are not worshipping you teach them, 06:54 you tell them, if they don't still 06:56 then you are authorized to kill them. 06:59 Now that one thing that is very played in the Quran 07:02 and I would be interested in your comment on it 07:04 and again I'll reiterate, well, this is a religious 07:06 liberty discussion, we have committed to allowing 07:09 all phrases, not allowing its not my right to allow 07:13 but I will defend the right of any one to 07:17 believe anything so I'm--you know, 07:19 you don't have to agree but I have read the Quran 07:23 and I think there is enough calls to a tolerance 07:27 to non believers. 07:29 But there is a very different to those who have 07:33 accepted Islam and then turn against it. 07:36 That can get very, very harsh 07:38 and that particularly is the cause for some edicts 07:46 and Fatwas recently. 07:49 I Think this is the translation of the Holy Quran, 07:51 who is doing--with the one who has done the translation 07:55 of the Quran did he understand 07:57 the meaning of the Quran properly language 07:59 so many things are there. 08:00 But it's the long section as one where-- 08:03 the prophet says that you offer them conversion 08:08 and they come and then the brethren 08:09 and you will raise them. 08:11 But then if they turn and then he goes 08:13 in the great detail about the physical punishment 08:18 to be meted out that we kill, that we flawed-- 08:21 No, that the thing is when-- of course, when you accept 08:24 their same faith, same religion, 08:27 they are their brother but if they turn away means, 08:29 they have rebellious attitude and they turn against 08:35 the government and they do all these things against 08:39 the policy and the law of the land that time 08:42 then you can way the war over them to defense 08:45 your faith to defense your religion. 08:47 So it is again today if anybody stand against 08:51 the USA, what USA will do? 08:54 Oh, it's a human reaction. 08:56 Then, then. The divine-- 08:59 That is in the Quran, I mean he is very direct 09:01 and that's when the punishment and your right to act 09:06 is this Mullah says, you are actually called up on to 09:09 violently eject them. 09:11 No, not like that. 09:12 As I mention earlier in one of the program 09:15 that the first is you forgive them. 09:18 If your forgiveness increases them 09:21 in their wrong attitude and in that they increase 09:25 in their transgressions then you have to take action 09:28 and-- It's true. 09:29 That progression is there. 09:31 It says, you forgive-- Aggression is not there. 09:33 Well, the last resort I think he has a it 09:36 as a last resort, yes. 09:39 What do you think about something that is 09:41 only rarely discussed but in some ways 09:43 that was the beginnings in the west of even hearing 09:46 about Fatwa's. 09:47 Remember the Khomeini issued a Fatwa 09:51 against Salman Rushdie for a very bad book by the way, 09:54 I read, Satanic Verses. 09:56 I didn't think it was that will written 09:59 but it was found offensive and there was a Fatwa 10:01 put against him. 10:02 This is again a very hot issue which many decades 10:09 took place and the Fatwa was issued against him. 10:13 You know, one thing is we should realize 10:16 that when the freedom is granted to you 10:20 there should be limitation of that. 10:21 Freedom does not mean that you abuse 10:24 the other people. 10:25 That is not freedom that is immorality, 10:28 which Salman Rushdie did against 10:29 the Prophet Mohammed and against Muslim 10:32 and against Islamic teaching 10:34 and against our dignity and honor, 10:38 respect of the prophet. 10:39 Well, I believe, I am sure it was offensive. 10:41 Right. 10:42 Where they meant to be, I don't know. 10:43 Then what Muslim did it was also not right. 10:48 Islam does not-- God will take care of him, 10:51 why you are taking care of that. 10:52 Now this is-- 10:53 My Bible says, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay." 10:56 Yeah, this time is time of pen. 11:00 We say jihad of sword is done. 11:03 Jihad with pen is this time. 11:05 So you should use pen, you should use 11:08 you own argumentation and you should with argument 11:11 tell them that you are wrong or right. 11:13 In stead of okay, so much reward will we give 11:17 if you kill that person. 11:19 I don't think this is Islamic way also 11:20 we Ahmadiyya Muslim Community does not agree 11:23 with such action or reaction. 11:25 Think you made that plain and that's very good. 11:27 In some ways you're swimming against the tide of Islam. 11:32 The waves, tide. 11:34 No, I mean, you can discuss theology 11:35 but there is a huge tendency in the Islamic world 11:38 to react in these extremist wise and it's-- 11:42 This is what unfortunately or wrongly taken 11:46 the action by the Muslims blasphemy. 11:50 They considered this blasphemy and the person 11:52 who commit the blasphemy he should be killed. 11:55 There is no room in Islam, there is no room in Quran, 11:58 there is no room by the action of the Prophet 12:00 of Islam that anybody committed the blasphemy 12:03 against him and the prophet allowed him go 12:06 and kill him, this is also not Islamic teaching 12:08 and Ahmadiyya Muslim Community stand for that. 12:11 We want to correct this error among the Muslim 12:14 that there is no teaching like that. 12:17 Now blasphemy is a very loaded sort of a charge 12:20 to bring against someone. 12:21 It is happening in Pakistan. 12:23 Yes, in the New Testament Jesus was basically 12:26 rush to judgment being called a blasphemy 12:29 but by saying He was God. 12:31 In the Middle Ages the Christian Europe 12:34 that was a common crime. 12:35 You could be executed for blasphemy 12:38 to speak badly of a religion. 12:39 So it's not unique to Islam, 12:41 I think it's the sense it's a standard sense ability 12:45 of those in religious path to restrict 12:48 those who might speak against religious faith. 12:51 We've run out of space 12:52 on our first half of the program 12:54 but please come back join us 12:56 for a further discussion of this very interesting topic. |
Revised 2014-12-17