Welcome to the
"Liberty Insider."
00:00:22.84\00:00:25.25
This is the program
bringing you news, views,
00:00:25.28\00:00:27.37
information, discussion
and I believe deep inside
00:00:27.40\00:00:30.74
it's an occasion in to
religious liberty events
00:00:30.77\00:00:33.80
in the United States but
around the world as well.
00:00:33.83\00:00:36.27
My guest on the program is
Imam from Chino, California.
00:00:36.30\00:00:43.29
Welcome. Thank you
very much, my friend.
00:00:43.32\00:00:46.05
And I think of you
last name Nasir but its--
00:00:46.08\00:00:48.54
Imam Shamshad
Nasir. Shamshad Nasir.
00:00:48.57\00:00:50.98
Yes.
00:00:51.01\00:00:52.42
This is a great
privilege to talk to you
00:00:52.45\00:00:54.47
and you've got some
obviously your expertise is
00:00:54.50\00:00:57.61
Islamic theology particularly
the Ahmadiyya Community
00:00:57.64\00:01:00.92
that you belong to.
Muslim community, yeah.
00:01:00.95\00:01:05.04
Let's--now look
far, far of field,
00:01:05.07\00:01:06.80
you wrote an article
for Liberty Magazine,
00:01:06.83\00:01:09.09
well back on a
news event where the--
00:01:09.12\00:01:14.12
the head cleric in
Mecca, Saudi Arabia.
00:01:14.15\00:01:17.29
Mufti. Mufti.
00:01:17.32\00:01:18.60
Yeah.
00:01:18.63\00:01:19.66
Which is the
theologian, right? Right.
00:01:19.69\00:01:21.85
The spiritual leader
and the theological expert,
00:01:21.88\00:01:24.73
he got up there in the mosque
and an incredible diatribe
00:01:24.76\00:01:29.92
said that, all
of the non-Muslim,
00:01:29.95\00:01:33.15
Churches or
structures should be torn down.
00:01:33.18\00:01:35.70
Wasn't that what he said?
00:01:35.73\00:01:37.34
Some of you did affect. Yes.
00:01:37.37\00:01:40.94
We were the people
Ahmadiyya Muslim Community
00:01:40.97\00:01:43.71
also condemned
this of his statement
00:01:43.74\00:01:48.30
because although he
has a great and grand title
00:01:48.33\00:01:53.33
like Mufti, in
Saudi Arabia, Mecca
00:01:53.36\00:01:56.77
but the teaching or the verdict,
00:01:56.80\00:02:01.20
Fatwa in Arabic which he
give was not right at all.
00:02:01.23\00:02:05.96
It does not
match with the teaching
00:02:05.99\00:02:08.64
of the prophet of Islam,
the teaching of the Holy Quran.
00:02:08.67\00:02:11.65
And--the reason
is simple reason is,
00:02:11.68\00:02:14.71
Islam is the
champion of freedom.
00:02:14.74\00:02:17.11
In the time of
the Holy Prophet Peace
00:02:17.14\00:02:18.65
be on him, a
delegate from Najran
00:02:18.68\00:02:22.02
came and after the dialogue
00:02:22.05\00:02:24.72
when they wanted to go
outside for their prayer,
00:02:24.75\00:02:26.87
worship, the Prophet of Islam
00:02:26.90\00:02:29.38
allowed them to say
prayer their own prayer,
00:02:29.41\00:02:33.02
Christian in their own mosque.
00:02:33.05\00:02:35.80
How he can say that all
this should be torn down.
00:02:35.83\00:02:39.65
I have with me
this chapter of freedom
00:02:39.68\00:02:43.37
granted to all Christians.
00:02:43.40\00:02:45.21
It is the statement of
the Prophet of Islam Mohammed
00:02:45.24\00:02:48.02
peace be on him.
00:02:48.05\00:02:49.08
I want to read
couple of words from that.
00:02:49.11\00:02:51.10
That's pretty long. Yeah.
00:02:51.13\00:02:52.16
Let's just read
a little-- Right.
00:02:52.19\00:02:53.60
Sample from this. Yes.
00:02:53.63\00:02:54.66
I was looking at it earlier.
00:02:54.69\00:02:56.12
It's a long statement. Yes.
00:02:56.15\00:02:57.30
He said I promise that any monk
00:02:57.33\00:02:59.43
or referrer who
will seek my help
00:02:59.46\00:03:02.45
on the mountains in forest,
00:03:02.48\00:03:04.51
desert or habitations
or in place of worship,
00:03:04.54\00:03:08.13
I will repel his
enemies with all my friends
00:03:08.16\00:03:12.22
and helpers.
00:03:12.25\00:03:14.03
And then he says that
no bishop will be expelled
00:03:14.06\00:03:17.11
from his bishop nor no
monk from his monastery,
00:03:17.14\00:03:22.20
no priest from
his place of worship.
00:03:22.23\00:03:24.84
How he can torn down
all the places of worship.
00:03:24.87\00:03:27.71
Islam is the one who
protect not only mosques,
00:03:27.74\00:03:30.56
places of worship of
the Muslims but Synagogue,
00:03:30.59\00:03:34.43
Churches and all places.
00:03:34.46\00:03:36.02
Islam protect them.
00:03:36.05\00:03:37.66
Now in many Muslim
countries where they were
00:03:37.69\00:03:40.42
other religions
when they came in,
00:03:40.45\00:03:43.68
didn't--was common
practice to levy religious tax
00:03:43.71\00:03:47.48
on non-believers, wasn't it?
00:03:47.51\00:03:49.40
No, it was not the--
00:03:49.43\00:03:50.49
Did that start
with Mohammed or--
00:03:50.52\00:03:52.89
No, no, it is not
religious tax, you know,
00:03:52.92\00:03:54.46
in that--
00:03:54.49\00:03:55.53
Its Demmi--isn't it?
00:03:55.56\00:03:57.57
Yeah, Jizya.
00:03:57.60\00:03:58.91
You know, in that
time it was not governments
00:03:58.94\00:04:01.40
like today all organized.
00:04:01.43\00:04:03.74
You have special
funds for the military.
00:04:03.77\00:04:06.48
That time to protect
the rights of minorities
00:04:06.51\00:04:10.25
or other faith,
this was taken from them,
00:04:10.28\00:04:13.04
for their protection.
00:04:13.07\00:04:14.96
For the protection
only because to employee
00:04:14.99\00:04:19.71
the soldiers and army
things like that it was used
00:04:19.74\00:04:22.99
for them not only money--
00:04:23.02\00:04:24.97
Yeah, I guess protection
money but you are right,
00:04:25.00\00:04:27.75
the context can't be
directly acquitted with today.
00:04:27.78\00:04:31.36
Now you have to
pay tax for everything
00:04:31.39\00:04:33.41
that time there was no.
00:04:33.44\00:04:34.58
The tax is--even you
are paying, I am paying,
00:04:34.61\00:04:37.63
children are paying,
men are paying, women,
00:04:37.66\00:04:39.35
everybody is paying tax.
00:04:39.38\00:04:41.19
So this was that tax. Yeah.
00:04:41.22\00:04:42.98
I mean, these are
agreeable statements
00:04:43.01\00:04:45.31
and I was aware of that.
00:04:45.34\00:04:46.43
That was a good statement.
00:04:46.46\00:04:47.49
So where does that
leave the--the Mufti and--
00:04:47.52\00:04:51.64
Room for the Mufti
to teach like that.
00:04:51.67\00:04:53.97
He was the recognized
authority and he makes
00:04:54.00\00:04:56.06
this pronouncement of
Fatwa, I always thought
00:04:56.09\00:04:58.74
of a Fatwa as a--it's a
little bit like with the
00:04:58.77\00:05:03.06
pope's speaks like procedure--
00:05:03.09\00:05:04.45
this is a formal
religious statement.
00:05:04.48\00:05:06.40
Of course, that is your
right, that is authority.
00:05:06.43\00:05:09.82
But I am sorry to say,
that this was not right
00:05:09.85\00:05:14.22
and this is not Islam teaching.
00:05:14.25\00:05:16.03
And in that my article you
know, I gave some extra example
00:05:16.06\00:05:20.80
also that you know,
worship is also very important
00:05:20.83\00:05:25.16
and very important for
each and every believer
00:05:25.19\00:05:29.16
have to worship.
00:05:29.19\00:05:30.52
Some of the Mufti given
the same kind of verdict
00:05:30.55\00:05:34.48
against those people
who do not worship the God.
00:05:34.51\00:05:36.41
They say, you have to teach them
00:05:36.44\00:05:38.42
if they don't
understand you kill them.
00:05:38.45\00:05:40.65
I have the
books, their verdicts,
00:05:40.68\00:05:42.70
they want to
kill even those who--
00:05:42.73\00:05:44.14
So where do they
get this from then?
00:05:44.17\00:05:46.06
If its not the--I am
not saying its Quran,
00:05:46.09\00:05:48.12
but if it's not
the Quran, what--
00:05:48.15\00:05:50.13
God knows the best from
where they are getting these.
00:05:50.16\00:05:52.85
This is just
deep seeded prejudice
00:05:52.88\00:05:54.82
that no one has
corrected them on.
00:05:54.85\00:05:58.37
May be they are but
they have their own views,
00:05:58.40\00:06:01.64
points, understanding
of the Quranic teaching
00:06:01.67\00:06:04.13
and--but to our
Ahmadiyya Muslim Community
00:06:04.16\00:06:07.58
understand that
Islam is not like that.
00:06:07.61\00:06:10.12
That even you don't
worship God, you just kill them,
00:06:10.15\00:06:12.60
this is not the way.
00:06:12.63\00:06:14.70
I think I will
again repeat my statements
00:06:14.73\00:06:18.39
which I have done some
other time in the program
00:06:18.42\00:06:21.78
also that these are the errors
00:06:21.81\00:06:24.72
which are getting
among the Muslims.
00:06:24.75\00:06:26.20
Yeah.
00:06:26.23\00:06:27.26
So this is the reason
Ahmadiyya Muslim stand,
00:06:27.29\00:06:29.23
is founder stand to
correct all the errors.
00:06:29.26\00:06:32.75
And I know I do believe
that these are distortions
00:06:32.78\00:06:36.78
or exaggerations may be is
a bit of--I would be more--
00:06:36.81\00:06:40.34
these are exaggerations
of Islamic teaching.
00:06:40.37\00:06:45.33
Yes, they shouldn't be.
00:06:45.36\00:06:47.69
I was amazed even to
read that those people
00:06:47.72\00:06:52.26
who are not
worshipping you teach them,
00:06:52.29\00:06:54.59
you tell them,
if they don't still
00:06:54.62\00:06:56.80
then you are
authorized to kill them.
00:06:56.83\00:06:59.94
Now that one thing that
is very played in the Quran
00:06:59.97\00:07:02.39
and I would be
interested in your comment on it
00:07:02.42\00:07:04.71
and again I'll reiterate,
well, this is a religious
00:07:04.74\00:07:06.92
liberty discussion, we
have committed to allowing
00:07:06.95\00:07:09.68
all phrases, not allowing
its not my right to allow
00:07:09.71\00:07:13.31
but I will defend
the right of any one to
00:07:13.34\00:07:17.34
believe anything
so I'm--you know,
00:07:17.37\00:07:19.03
you don't have to agree
but I have read the Quran
00:07:19.06\00:07:23.79
and I think there is
enough calls to a tolerance
00:07:23.82\00:07:27.42
to non believers.
00:07:27.45\00:07:29.30
But there is a very
different to those who have
00:07:29.33\00:07:32.97
accepted Islam and
then turn against it.
00:07:33.00\00:07:36.86
That can get very, very harsh
00:07:36.89\00:07:38.81
and that particularly is
the cause for some edicts
00:07:38.84\00:07:46.43
and Fatwas recently.
00:07:46.46\00:07:49.21
I Think this is the
translation of the Holy Quran,
00:07:49.24\00:07:51.86
who is doing--with the one
who has done the translation
00:07:51.89\00:07:55.51
of the Quran did he understand
00:07:55.54\00:07:57.36
the meaning of the
Quran properly language
00:07:57.39\00:07:59.33
so many things are there.
00:07:59.36\00:08:00.64
But it's the long
section as one where--
00:08:00.67\00:08:03.75
the prophet says that
you offer them conversion
00:08:03.78\00:08:08.72
and they come
and then the brethren
00:08:08.75\00:08:09.96
and you will raise them.
00:08:09.99\00:08:11.12
But then if they
turn and then he goes
00:08:11.15\00:08:13.75
in the great detail
about the physical punishment
00:08:13.78\00:08:18.27
to be meted out that
we kill, that we flawed--
00:08:18.30\00:08:21.21
No, that the thing is when--
of course, when you accept
00:08:21.24\00:08:24.71
their same faith, same religion,
00:08:24.74\00:08:27.16
they are their brother
but if they turn away means,
00:08:27.19\00:08:29.93
they have rebellious
attitude and they turn against
00:08:29.96\00:08:35.51
the government and they
do all these things against
00:08:35.54\00:08:39.11
the policy and the
law of the land that time
00:08:39.14\00:08:42.07
then you can way the
war over them to defense
00:08:42.10\00:08:44.97
your faith to
defense your religion.
00:08:45.00\00:08:47.83
So it is again today
if anybody stand against
00:08:47.86\00:08:51.03
the USA, what USA will do?
00:08:51.06\00:08:54.46
Oh, it's a human reaction.
00:08:54.49\00:08:56.31
Then, then. The divine--
00:08:56.34\00:08:59.44
That is in the Quran,
I mean he is very direct
00:08:59.47\00:09:01.08
and that's when the
punishment and your right to act
00:09:01.11\00:09:06.08
is this Mullah says, you
are actually called up on to
00:09:06.11\00:09:09.61
violently eject them.
00:09:09.64\00:09:11.42
No, not like that.
00:09:11.45\00:09:12.55
As I mention earlier
in one of the program
00:09:12.58\00:09:15.36
that the first
is you forgive them.
00:09:15.39\00:09:18.48
If your
forgiveness increases them
00:09:18.51\00:09:21.45
in their wrong attitude
and in that they increase
00:09:21.48\00:09:25.40
in their transgressions
then you have to take action
00:09:25.43\00:09:28.68
and-- It's true.
00:09:28.71\00:09:29.87
That progression is there.
00:09:29.90\00:09:31.03
It says, you forgive--
Aggression is not there.
00:09:31.06\00:09:33.83
Well, the last
resort I think he has a it
00:09:33.86\00:09:36.38
as a last resort, yes.
00:09:36.41\00:09:39.76
What do you think
about something that is
00:09:39.79\00:09:41.33
only rarely
discussed but in some ways
00:09:41.36\00:09:43.62
that was the beginnings
in the west of even hearing
00:09:43.65\00:09:46.18
about Fatwa's.
00:09:46.21\00:09:47.42
Remember the
Khomeini issued a Fatwa
00:09:47.45\00:09:51.15
against Salman Rushdie for
a very bad book by the way,
00:09:51.18\00:09:54.85
I read, Satanic Verses.
00:09:54.88\00:09:56.78
I didn't think it
was that will written
00:09:56.81\00:09:59.50
but it was found
offensive and there was a Fatwa
00:09:59.53\00:10:01.63
put against him.
00:10:01.66\00:10:02.77
This is again a very
hot issue which many decades
00:10:02.80\00:10:09.04
took place and the
Fatwa was issued against him.
00:10:09.07\00:10:13.89
You know, one thing
is we should realize
00:10:13.92\00:10:16.45
that when the
freedom is granted to you
00:10:16.48\00:10:20.28
there should be
limitation of that.
00:10:20.31\00:10:21.80
Freedom does not
mean that you abuse
00:10:21.83\00:10:24.24
the other people.
00:10:24.27\00:10:25.30
That is not
freedom that is immorality,
00:10:25.33\00:10:28.02
which Salman Rushdie did against
00:10:28.05\00:10:29.94
the Prophet
Mohammed and against Muslim
00:10:29.97\00:10:32.26
and against Islamic teaching
00:10:32.29\00:10:34.30
and against our
dignity and honor,
00:10:34.33\00:10:38.18
respect of the prophet.
00:10:38.21\00:10:39.28
Well, I believe, I am
sure it was offensive.
00:10:39.31\00:10:41.15
Right.
00:10:41.18\00:10:42.21
Where they meant
to be, I don't know.
00:10:42.24\00:10:43.96
Then what Muslim did
it was also not right.
00:10:43.99\00:10:48.64
Islam does not-- God
will take care of him,
00:10:48.67\00:10:51.04
why you are taking care of that.
00:10:51.07\00:10:52.40
Now this is--
00:10:52.43\00:10:53.84
My Bible says, "Vengeance
is mine, I will repay."
00:10:53.87\00:10:56.50
Yeah, this time is time of pen.
00:10:56.53\00:11:00.15
We say jihad of sword is done.
00:11:00.18\00:11:03.47
Jihad with pen is this time.
00:11:03.50\00:11:05.86
So you should use
pen, you should use
00:11:05.89\00:11:08.57
you own argumentation
and you should with argument
00:11:08.60\00:11:11.83
tell them that you
are wrong or right.
00:11:11.86\00:11:13.83
In stead of okay, so
much reward will we give
00:11:13.86\00:11:17.71
if you kill that person.
00:11:17.74\00:11:19.05
I don't think this
is Islamic way also
00:11:19.08\00:11:20.93
we Ahmadiyya Muslim
Community does not agree
00:11:20.96\00:11:23.89
with such action or reaction.
00:11:23.92\00:11:25.75
Think you made that
plain and that's very good.
00:11:25.78\00:11:27.57
In some ways you're swimming
against the tide of Islam.
00:11:27.60\00:11:32.74
The waves, tide.
00:11:32.77\00:11:34.09
No, I mean, you
can discuss theology
00:11:34.12\00:11:35.49
but there is a huge
tendency in the Islamic world
00:11:35.52\00:11:38.73
to react in these
extremist wise and it's--
00:11:38.76\00:11:42.77
This is what
unfortunately or wrongly taken
00:11:42.80\00:11:46.73
the action by the
Muslims blasphemy.
00:11:46.76\00:11:50.65
They considered this
blasphemy and the person
00:11:50.68\00:11:52.52
who commit the
blasphemy he should be killed.
00:11:52.55\00:11:55.54
There is no room in Islam,
there is no room in Quran,
00:11:55.57\00:11:58.31
there is no room by
the action of the Prophet
00:11:58.34\00:12:00.47
of Islam that anybody
committed the blasphemy
00:12:00.50\00:12:03.40
against him and the
prophet allowed him go
00:12:03.43\00:12:06.22
and kill him, this is
also not Islamic teaching
00:12:06.25\00:12:08.75
and Ahmadiyya Muslim
Community stand for that.
00:12:08.78\00:12:11.31
We want to correct
this error among the Muslim
00:12:11.34\00:12:14.09
that there is no
teaching like that.
00:12:14.12\00:12:17.13
Now blasphemy is a
very loaded sort of a charge
00:12:17.16\00:12:20.82
to bring against someone.
00:12:20.85\00:12:21.92
It is happening in Pakistan.
00:12:21.95\00:12:23.67
Yes, in the New
Testament Jesus was basically
00:12:23.70\00:12:26.87
rush to judgment
being called a blasphemy
00:12:26.90\00:12:29.43
but by saying He was God.
00:12:29.46\00:12:31.34
In the Middle Ages
the Christian Europe
00:12:31.37\00:12:34.30
that was a common crime.
00:12:34.33\00:12:35.96
You could be
executed for blasphemy
00:12:35.99\00:12:38.03
to speak badly of a religion.
00:12:38.06\00:12:39.55
So it's not unique to Islam,
00:12:39.58\00:12:41.30
I think it's the sense
it's a standard sense ability
00:12:41.33\00:12:45.00
of those in
religious path to restrict
00:12:45.03\00:12:48.64
those who might speak
against religious faith.
00:12:48.67\00:12:51.17
We've run out of space
00:12:51.20\00:12:52.39
on our first half of the program
00:12:52.42\00:12:53.99
but please come back join us
00:12:54.02\00:12:56.32
for a further discussion of
this very interesting topic.
00:12:56.35\00:12:58.53