Welcome, to the Liberty Insider.
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This is a
program bringing you news
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and discussion and information
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and up-to-date
facts and figures about
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religious liberty
events in the United States
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and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed
the Editor of Liberty Magazine.
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And my guest on this program
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is Imam Shamshad
from Chino California.
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Ahmadiyya Muslim Community.
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Ahmadiyya
Muslim Community there.
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And you once were leading
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a similar mosque
in the-- Maryland.
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Maryland, near the
General Conference head quarters
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where I work. Right.
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And I remember you
came in and you told me that
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the contact point was you
read Liberty Magazine. Right.
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And that just
warms my heart today
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that you wanted to
talk to me because--
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Thank you, very much inviting me
in our program. And it's been.
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And I am glad to
be here. Thank you.
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It's been a pleasure
that apart from the program
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to talk about common concern
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for religious
freedom for all people
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and then to discuss elements
of Christianity and Islam.
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I really
appreciate to this your effort
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and we have to raise this
more what we're doing right now,
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more than that there should be
freedom of faith and religion,
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freedom of
conscious, freedom of speech
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and freedom of
exercising the faith
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of each and everyone
without any discrimination
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of race and color and creed
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and in all over the world
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not only one country
but all over the world.
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And once-- as you say that
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that's a wonderful reiteration
of the common principles
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that we hold our
religious freedom.
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I think one of
the biggest threats
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that we need to speak against
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is that even at the
Untied Nations level
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there is move
Islam is involved with it
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but there's also
Christian elements and so on
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who are trying to get sort
of international agreements
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that would make it
some sort of civil offence
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to offend a person's faith
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by speaking badly
about your religion.
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And at first blush
people say, yes, that's right.
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Why should some
one insult my religion?
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You know you'll be surprised
as what you have said right now.
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Quran forbid this thing
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to say any negative against
any other faith and religion.
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Quran explains that you
should not say any harsh word
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or wrong or abuse even the--
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to those people
who worship idols.
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Well, yes and I think the
Bible has similar comments
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that in the civil environment
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where you're
dealing with unbelievers
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I don't think that we
should be free to punish people
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who speak in
ignorance. It is truth.
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So and also I don't
know what offends you.
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Sometimes to just say what I--
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like for example
as an Ahmadiyya Muslim
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you know that just for you
to speak without any comments
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some of your
beliefs even another Muslim
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they might find it offensive
they'll see you as the sick.
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Of course, of course.
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So I think to pass
an international law
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where there's penalties against
insulting another religion
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we don't want insulting religion
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but to just do
that lays the groundwork
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for me to stop any discussion.
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The one things which I will,
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I will like to
express my feeling
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that personally
myself and Ahmadiyya Muslims
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in this country
we are very proud.
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We are proud that
we're Ahmadiyya Muslim
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and we're living in America
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because America
provides freedom of faith,
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freedom of religion,
freedom of conscious,
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freedom of exercise the faith.
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While Islam is the
champion of all this freedom
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but unfortunately most
of the Muslim countries
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they do not allow people
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to exercise
their faith in freely.
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The big example is Pakistan
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where Ahmadiyya
Muslims are persecuted,
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where Shia persecuted,
where Christian are persecuted.
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And falsely blasphemy case
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are registered
against them in the police
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and police arrest
them and persecute them.
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And some time even
people have taken the law
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in their own hand
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and they kill the
people in the street. Yeah.
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I can give several example
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what is happen--
I know in Pakistan.
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In Pakistan. Even
recent there is a case.
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India, Bangladesh, Indonesia,
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these countries
are very doing wrong
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against the
teaching of the Quran
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and example of
the prophet of Islam.
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You know, you're originally were
from Pakistan. Pakistan, yeah.
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In fact a few decades
ago and it's always difficult
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to be objective
about your own country.
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I know when I talk about
Australia I have rosy glasses.
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I think very good
things of Australia
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where I am from originally.
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But is there a-- why
is Pakistan at the moment
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having such
problems within Islam
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and of course relating to
Christians within Pakistan.
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Why is there such intolerance?
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What started this do you think?
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I think this is ignorance
from the teaching of Quran
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and teaching and
example and the tradition
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of the Prophet
Mohammed, peace be with him.
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All though they
claim those terrorist
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or those extremists, radical
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all though they
claim that they're Muslim
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we don't have
any problem with that
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but when they say
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they're following
the teaching of Quran,
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they're following the
teaching of Prophet Mohammed
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that is the problem.
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Because as I have
little knowledge of the Quran,
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little knowledge of
the holy prophets life
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and his practice
and the tradition
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there's no simple
one example like that
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with these
people are doing today.
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Well, that's true.
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The terrorist and
violent people usually
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with the political
agenda as well. Of course.
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But there's something more on
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as you say people are
being killed in the streets,
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often it's a mob
that do something.
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I don't think they're
particularly terrorists.
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Why would they--why do we
see so much of it in Pakistan
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and it's not only one country
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but there seems to be
many recent or in my lifetime
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I think looking
back in my lifetime
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I'd say its within the last
30 years that that's happened.
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You see I think
there are two reasons.
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Then Ahmadiyya Muslim are killed
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they are killed
because of their faith
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because they
differ in their faith
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with the rest of the Muslims.
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Then they kill Ahmadiyya Muslims
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that is one of
the reasons they say
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because you believe prophet
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after Prophet
Mohammed peace be on him.
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Therefore, you're not a Muslim
and for Muslim we're going to--
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for that reason
we're going to kill you.
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Number two, the reason
they kill us or persecute jihad
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we don't accept the
terminology of jihad
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as they accept as they believe.
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We don't. So these are
some of the reason they kill.
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What about other innocent people
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because this is a
politics then again.
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Why they support the America
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why they
support this thing, why?
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Because of all that
they are killing that.
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Do you think the politicians
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have stirred up
religious animosity
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or do you think
some imams for political
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or personal reasons
have agitating people?
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I think the
politicians also do not have
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any strong base
of their knowledge
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in religion, number one.
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Number two, they are
in the lap of Mullah,
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these religious scholars.
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And the religious Mullah
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they pressure them to
take action against Ahmadiyya
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or against those people
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or thinks like
that what is happening.
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So a Mullah is
more of a theologian.
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Right. And the
imam is the teacher.
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So called--yeah.
Or the leader. Yeah.
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So these leader they
pressure the government
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and this politicians to
persecute either Ahmadis
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or Shia or some of the
non Muslim organization
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in the country
or minorities. Yeah.
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All though sometime they claim
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the government of Pakistan
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their minister
members they claim
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"oh, no we are doing
justice with everyone
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and there's no such a
persecution going on at all."
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This is
exaggeration which is not right.
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They don't give the
right statement at all. Yeah.
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People can see what
happened 28th of May.
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I think the facts are
very planted in certain groups.
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Human Rights Commission reports
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always every year they publish
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and they can see
their face over there. Yeah.
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Now our church
has a world report
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on religious
freedom and problems
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and year after
year this has been
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so many incidents in
Pakistan and other countries
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but Pakistan is what you
talk about. Is number one.
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They're not
little things as you say
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a whole group of
Ahmadiyya's killed all at once.
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You know that's just not like
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someone speaking
badly or losing a job.
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This is extreme
violent prejudice.
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And now that there
are some journalists too
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and some newspaper
are bringing that issue
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in today's Dawn
was also that news
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that the
Ahmadiyya has persecuted
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without any reason at all.
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This was not the vision
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of the
Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah
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who was a
founder of the Pakistan.
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So they are going
away from his rules
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and regulation
he set up the goal.
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Pakistan--he
separated Pakistan from India.
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You've said the name quickly
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and our viewers
know this is Jinnah.
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Yeah, Muhammad Ali Jinnah.
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Yeah, he is a political leader
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but had a
religious faith, didn't he?
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No he is a--his once
speech is very famous
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and we quote and other
people also quote now-a-days
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that he said, in
Pakistan everybody will be free.
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There is no nothing that
state has to do with church
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or the church state with
the mosque or whatsoever.
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So state and church he
said it will be separate.
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But he wanted it to
be an Islamic homeland.
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Islamic homeland but
everybody will be free.
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Then if you want to
go synagogue you can go,
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if you want to go
to a mosque you can go,
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if you want to go
to a mandir you can go.
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He really spelled that all.
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Right, he but
the people after that
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did not follow that
instruction and guideline.
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Pakistan had a difficult
history hasn't it? Right.
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So from partition on
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and of course many
people may have forgotten.
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They forget their own
sacrifices they did but
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and they are bringing
the extremism in Pakistan
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in the name of god in
the name of the religion,
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in the name of Islam.
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And the US I don't
believe the US is to blame
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but that's the wrong
word some people use that.
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But I think it
was very unfortunate
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that when the
Soviets were in Afghanistan--
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western interest stirred up,
00:11:07.21\00:11:10.04
fundamentalist thinking
to get Mujahideen movement
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to go and fight
against the Soviets.
00:11:15.13\00:11:17.08
And I think that encouraged
back to another discussion
00:11:17.11\00:11:20.08
that you and I had the
wrong version of jihad.
00:11:20.11\00:11:23.27
Don't you think
for political purpose?
00:11:23.30\00:11:24.80
Yes, of course. Yeah.
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We don't accept that.
00:11:26.55\00:11:27.58
So the Jennie, the Jennie
was out of the bottle. Yeah.
00:11:27.61\00:11:32.72
We've got a another
half of this program coming
00:11:32.75\00:11:34.60
but before we get to that half
let's just introduce a topic
00:11:34.63\00:11:37.22
that I think we could
talk about with some value.
00:11:37.25\00:11:42.67
Women have had an
interesting place in history.
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It's not just a
religious question
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but you go to the middle
ages in the Christian western
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and women were
not treated so well.
00:11:51.62\00:11:54.07
And in the United States
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I can remember was
only like 40 years ago
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or so that the woman's
movement took out here.
00:11:58.64\00:12:01.33
Women lived they called it.
00:12:01.36\00:12:02.66
And woman's rights and
now in the modern world
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we're very concerned
that woman be treated equally
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but how does Islam treat women.
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That's often I think
matter of some discussion.
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How would you
characterize just briefly
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and then we go to a break?
00:12:20.93\00:12:22.34
I'll say that woman in Islam
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is source of
paradise for Muslims.
00:12:25.89\00:12:28.95
She is the source of
paradise. Source of paradise.
00:12:28.98\00:12:31.50
Well, of course, the misuse
statement about the jihadi's
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they get to have
these virgins in heaven
00:12:35.48\00:12:37.25
in paradise. So woman--
00:12:37.28\00:12:38.77
It is source of paradise,
source of paradise for Muslims.
00:12:38.80\00:12:43.04
Source. Yes, yes.
00:12:43.07\00:12:45.58
With that provocative statement.
00:12:45.61\00:12:47.60
We'll go to a break and
comeback after the break
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and we'll
continue this discussion
00:12:50.48\00:12:51.70
of the role of woman in Islam.
00:12:51.73\00:12:53.59