Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Imam Shamshad A. Nasir
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000218A
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00:22 Welcome to "The Liberty Insider".
00:24 This is the program bringing you discussion, 00:27 news and information you may not have heard on 00:29 religious liberty affairs in the United States 00:32 and around the world. 00:33 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty Magazine. 00:37 And my guest on the program is 00:39 Imam Shamshad, Ahmadiyya Community Leader 00:45 from Chino, California 00:47 and a good friend of mine. 00:48 We've already quite a lot of discussion 00:50 over several years. 00:53 Let's talk about something 00:56 that sets a lot of people's teeth on edge 00:58 under the title of Jihad. Okay. 01:01 But allow me, just indulge for a minute. 01:07 I--I'll tell you a story and our viewers 01:08 can listen to this. 01:09 As I travel around, I bump into people 01:12 who watch the program. 01:13 It is very gratifying they say, I saw you on TV. 01:17 And so there will be many thousands, perhaps 01:19 hundreds of thousands of people that will see 01:21 this program and know about your work. 01:25 And one person the other day they said when 01:27 they met me, "Oh, I know that watch." 01:29 I had a watch that I usually wear. 01:31 It's pretty big and I realize that people are 01:33 watching lot of details. 01:34 Well, I want to show the watch that I have today. 01:38 And I was explaining it to you before the program. 01:41 I got this from my father. 01:43 He is now dead now, but he received it directly 01:46 from Old King Faisal of Saudi Arabia. 01:50 Saud Faisal. 01:51 He was the older brother of all the current 01:54 or recent kings and will be of all the kings 01:57 'cause the succession is through the sons of, 02:00 what's it, Ibn Saud, wasn't it? 02:03 And he had great contacts there in Saudi Arabia. 02:06 But today, I think the Jihad, the violent Jihad 02:11 and the dangerous terrorist tendencies 02:14 that we've seen, in my view come from 02:17 a religious viewpoint that emanates most often 02:19 from Saudi Arabia, a harsh sort of an application of Islam. 02:24 You see that is a reason the founder of 02:26 the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community is raised by God Almighty, 02:30 because there are some errors that are taking 02:32 place among the Muslims and other faiths. 02:34 He came to crack that errors also. 02:37 One error is about jihad. 02:39 Islam allow jihad, but jihad does not mean 02:42 to go and kill the innocent people. 02:44 Jihad has--it is Arabic word, which has meaning, 02:47 "to strive very hard, to reach to your goal." 02:51 And the goal of Islam or goal of God Almighty 02:56 mentioned in the Holy Quran are the message 02:59 which the Prophet Muhammad gave to the people 03:02 is message of peace, love, understand--understanding, 03:06 respect to other people. 03:08 And moreover, the fundamental thing in Islam 03:13 which for the person who follow 03:15 the religion of Islam is self reformation 03:17 that is more important. 03:20 So therefore, the first jihad is self reformation. 03:23 That person should reform and come closer to God 03:26 clean as-- Yeah. 03:28 Now I've read the Quran through and it's true. 03:30 That is a very reasonable and consistent application 03:33 of the term, jihad. 03:35 But it seems to me that in Saudi Arabia, 03:39 the Wahhabist view point it's parallel in Christianity 03:43 or the Christian militia type people. 03:47 You know, in this country there are people that take 03:50 very hard things from the Old Testament usually 03:53 and some from the New Testament, 03:54 but mostly the Old Testament. 03:56 And they put militarism on it and they are going to 03:59 get a sword and go out and defend the faith 04:02 and advance the faith. 04:04 And I--I do believe that in the Wahhabist 04:08 viewpoint, well, it's a perversion. 04:12 They've also picked up on a parallel usage of jihad. 04:16 I mean it usually means spiritual battle, 04:19 but it from Muhammad's time on, I see some evidence 04:22 that jihad was contending for the faith. 04:25 You know, the Bible is contending for the faith 04:27 and opposing wickedness and sometimes 04:30 they literally took our palms. 04:32 And so I think yes, it's a perversion, 04:34 but it's not, not a fabrication 04:37 I think it exists there, but they made it 04:39 the main application of jihad. 04:42 As I mentioned in the beginning, 04:43 I started that this is the reason that the founder 04:46 of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community 04:47 was raised this time as Imam Mahdi 04:50 and a promised Messiah, to correct the errors 04:52 taking place among the Muslims as well, 04:54 so one is jihad also. 04:56 As I mentioned jihad is three types of jihad. 04:59 One is self-reformation. 05:00 This is number one. 05:02 First you have to reform come closer to God, 05:04 clean yourself, your soul, your heart, your mind, 05:07 your thoughts, everything this is number one. 05:10 Number two, when you have done this thing, 05:12 second to jihad is to convey this message of peace, love, 05:16 understanding, harmony to other people. 05:18 Quran mentioned that. 05:20 (Speaking in Arabic) Three time jihad. 05:23 That you have to make jihad with the Quran. 05:25 What Quran says, go and kill the people? 05:28 It is--this is the Holy Quran, whole, 05:30 this is book, Holy Quran. 05:31 Does it says go and kill 05:33 the innocent people like that? 05:34 No, no, no. That is not a jihad. 05:36 Correct. 05:37 So jihad means that convey the teaching 05:40 of the Holy Quran to the people, 05:41 this is second kind of jihad. 05:43 The third of jihad is defensive. 05:46 In case, in case, that somebody attack upon you. 05:50 So you are granted permission only to defend yourself, 05:54 no aggression at all in any kind of things. 05:57 You're right. 05:58 I'm glad you brought this up. 06:00 Because I had forgot. 06:01 And I hadn't mentioned this, 06:02 but I did hear a long discussion once 06:06 with several Imams of, not Ahmadiyya, 06:10 Ahmadiyya community, but from Shias 06:12 and Sunnis and they were discussing jihad. 06:16 And they made a comment that I know 06:18 is in the Quran and it's a very clear distinction 06:20 between at least the sayings of Jesus 06:22 in the New Testament. 06:24 Jesus said to turn your cheek. 06:26 Yeah. 06:28 And to forgive, you know, someone takes 06:30 something get one coat, you give them another piece 06:32 of clothing. 06:33 And most Christians have great trouble doing that. 06:37 But these Imams said that in Islam if you hit me 06:41 once I hit twice. You know, I-- 06:43 This is also not a teaching of the Quran. 06:45 Well, but-- 06:47 The Quran says-- 06:49 But Muhammad does say when you're attacked you--you 06:53 respond strongly. 06:54 No, no. 06:55 What--let me what Quran says, 06:57 what Prophet Muhammad says is matched to each other. 07:00 It does not clash, otherwise there will be 07:02 no clue for anything at all. 07:04 Muhammad is, peace be on Him, 07:05 he was the first person to follow 07:07 the teaching of the Quran. 07:08 Then his followers are going to. 07:09 What Quran says that first is forgiveness, 07:13 if somebody transgressing against you, forgive. 07:17 If you're forgiveness increases 07:18 in his transgression then take the revenge, 07:23 but not exceed the limit. 07:25 It is same manner, same amount, same manner, 07:30 not double, not anything at all. 07:32 Now it doesn't use the term double. 07:34 They did in this discussion. Right, right. 07:36 But it does say to resist strongly 07:38 if you are attacked then in-- 07:40 Defense is allowed. 07:41 And that's why you were saying this is, 07:43 but the language is-- 07:45 Yeah. Of course. 07:46 It gives some encouragement to people 07:50 like Al-Qaeda, who are incorrect theologians, 07:54 but they see it there and they're running with it. 07:57 Yeah. 07:59 So Quran says, "first thing is forgiveness." 08:02 Even somebody transgress against you, 08:05 if somebody beat you. 08:06 So first thing in Quran and Islam 08:08 and Prophet Muhammad say forgiveness. 08:11 If your forgiveness-- 08:13 If the world could follow throughout that principle 08:16 life would be wonderful Yeah. 08:17 Of course. 08:18 As Christians, Muslims and other beliefs. 08:20 Of course. 08:21 No religion teaches tolerance, ah, sorry, 08:23 no religion teaches the transgression 08:25 and terrorist activities, no religion. 08:27 So we believe all religion came from God. 08:30 All messengers came from God. 08:32 They were all holy. 08:33 They were all divine personality 08:35 and they delivered the message, wonderful manner 08:38 and that love God, God is one. 08:41 And respect the humanity. 08:43 This is the message. 08:46 All religions or at least most religions can easily, 08:51 they will turn into the situation 08:53 where a believer seen the faith rejected 08:57 or insulted or challenged 09:00 can feel that they are the agent of God 09:03 to execute some, action on them, and I think 09:06 that's false 'cause we can't know like God knows 09:10 and we should forgive, but the Quran and the Bible, 09:14 the Old Testament particularly, if someone is unbalanced, 09:17 they sometimes can believe they are the agent of God 09:19 to visit judgment on someone. 09:21 That you know, as we mentioned earlier 09:23 that they're different belief people are holding 09:26 and their action also sometime does not--do not match 09:30 with the teaching of their own faith. 09:32 So it is what is happening in this world. 09:34 And that is the reason that this is the end of 09:37 the world coming closer and there should be 09:39 reformer from God who will come and unite 09:42 all the people together. 09:43 Yeah, yeah. 09:45 Well, we certainly need the spirit of tolerance, 09:47 which is from God, but at the same time holding 09:52 to particular beliefs. 09:55 I need to throw this in for our TV program 09:56 and for the discussion here. 09:59 As the Seventh-day Adventist Christian, 10:00 who studied prophecy, I think one of the great risks 10:04 of the end of the time is that people will become 10:07 so frightened by violence and evil 10:10 and all the rest of that they will join together 10:13 in sort of a false religious alliance, 10:15 where they put aside all of their understandings 10:19 of God and just sort of, you know, 10:21 is the term that we use "kumbaya," sort of 10:24 I'm okay, you're okay, God loves us all. 10:27 I think as a Muslim and as a Christian 10:29 we can understand and agree that God has very particular 10:33 requirements for us, doesn't He? 10:35 We wants us to live a certain way. 10:38 It's not unimportant. 10:39 We need to keep to these beliefs. 10:41 Of course. 10:42 We are in this civilized age this time 10:45 and we know how the world is heading towards destruction. 10:50 And it is the duty of the religious leaders 10:53 that they have to protect people from destruction. 10:57 And unfortunately it is not happening. 11:00 And Christian believe, Jewish believe, 11:03 Muslim believe, all believe that we are coming closer 11:06 to the end of the world. 11:07 But where is that divine reformer? 11:09 Where is the Messiah? 11:11 Where is that they're expecting great teacher? 11:13 When He is coming? 11:15 Because this is the time if He still not coming 11:19 why, why He is--what He is waiting then for? 11:24 We have to see that point. 11:25 That's the reason we want to convey 11:27 this message also. 11:28 I thank--I'm very thankful to you again. 11:30 That Liberty magazine is doing wonderful job 11:33 and you are bringing the different ideology 11:38 and viewpoint of the other faiths in your magazine 11:42 like my two, three articles that are 11:44 published already on that. 11:46 Yeah, on that. 11:47 So my point is that 11:49 the people are heading towards destruction. 11:52 And we have not to save them 11:53 physically also, spiritually also. 11:56 Absolutely. 11:57 And for that person people are waiting for 11:59 the great teacher, reformer to come, 12:01 a divine person should come. 12:03 And my question is only to the world 12:06 that when He is coming? 12:07 When we all die in the same state? 12:10 Then what time He will be coming then? 12:13 Well, we'll see that. 12:18 We can theology here, I hope our viewers 12:20 understand on religious liberty 12:21 and as I reiterated, it's not necessary to agree 12:26 the same. Of course. 12:27 It's to fend your right to belief something even 12:30 that I might find totally incorrect 12:33 and personally offensive. 12:35 But as someone that believes in religious liberty, 12:38 I have to be prepared if necessary 12:40 to die to defend your right to believe something 12:43 that I don't. Of course. 12:44 We've run out of time on our first half, 12:47 but please viewers stay with us. 12:49 We will be back after a short break to continue 12:51 this discussion with Imam Shamshad. |
Revised 2014-12-17