Welcome to "The
Liberty Insider".
00:00:22.85\00:00:24.83
This is the program
bringing you discussion,
00:00:24.86\00:00:27.18
news and information
you may not have heard on
00:00:27.21\00:00:29.96
religious liberty
affairs in the United States
00:00:29.99\00:00:32.12
and around the world.
00:00:32.15\00:00:33.65
My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty Magazine.
00:00:33.68\00:00:37.23
And my guest on the program is
00:00:37.26\00:00:39.58
Imam Shamshad,
Ahmadiyya Community Leader
00:00:39.61\00:00:45.74
from Chino, California
00:00:45.77\00:00:47.04
and a good friend of mine.
00:00:47.07\00:00:48.10
We've already
quite a lot of discussion
00:00:48.13\00:00:50.04
over several years.
00:00:50.07\00:00:53.10
Let's talk about something
00:00:53.13\00:00:56.59
that sets a lot of
people's teeth on edge
00:00:56.62\00:00:58.87
under the title of Jihad. Okay.
00:00:58.90\00:01:01.42
But allow me, just
indulge for a minute.
00:01:01.45\00:01:07.27
I--I'll tell you a
story and our viewers
00:01:07.30\00:01:08.56
can listen to this.
00:01:08.59\00:01:09.70
As I travel
around, I bump into people
00:01:09.73\00:01:12.35
who watch the program.
00:01:12.38\00:01:13.84
It is very gratifying
they say, I saw you on TV.
00:01:13.87\00:01:17.38
And so there will be
many thousands, perhaps
00:01:17.41\00:01:19.88
hundreds of thousands
of people that will see
00:01:19.91\00:01:21.74
this program and
know about your work.
00:01:21.77\00:01:25.43
And one person the
other day they said when
00:01:25.46\00:01:27.03
they met me, "Oh,
I know that watch."
00:01:27.06\00:01:29.86
I had a watch
that I usually wear.
00:01:29.89\00:01:31.62
It's pretty big and I
realize that people are
00:01:31.65\00:01:33.12
watching lot of details.
00:01:33.15\00:01:34.66
Well, I want to show
the watch that I have today.
00:01:34.69\00:01:38.77
And I was explaining it
to you before the program.
00:01:38.80\00:01:41.34
I got this from my father.
00:01:41.37\00:01:43.63
He is now dead now,
but he received it directly
00:01:43.66\00:01:46.60
from Old King
Faisal of Saudi Arabia.
00:01:46.63\00:01:50.02
Saud Faisal.
00:01:50.05\00:01:51.30
He was the older
brother of all the current
00:01:51.33\00:01:54.42
or recent kings and
will be of all the kings
00:01:54.45\00:01:57.85
'cause the succession
is through the sons of,
00:01:57.88\00:02:00.27
what's it, Ibn Saud, wasn't it?
00:02:00.30\00:02:03.13
And he had great
contacts there in Saudi Arabia.
00:02:03.16\00:02:06.48
But today, I think the
Jihad, the violent Jihad
00:02:06.51\00:02:11.22
and the dangerous
terrorist tendencies
00:02:11.25\00:02:14.09
that we've seen,
in my view come from
00:02:14.12\00:02:17.08
a religious viewpoint
that emanates most often
00:02:17.11\00:02:19.77
from Saudi Arabia, a harsh
sort of an application of Islam.
00:02:19.80\00:02:24.92
You see that is a
reason the founder of
00:02:24.95\00:02:26.88
the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community
is raised by God Almighty,
00:02:26.91\00:02:30.12
because there are
some errors that are taking
00:02:30.15\00:02:32.45
place among the
Muslims and other faiths.
00:02:32.48\00:02:34.79
He came to crack
that errors also.
00:02:34.82\00:02:37.12
One error is about jihad.
00:02:37.15\00:02:39.44
Islam allow jihad,
but jihad does not mean
00:02:39.47\00:02:42.17
to go and kill
the innocent people.
00:02:42.20\00:02:44.44
Jihad has--it is Arabic
word, which has meaning,
00:02:44.47\00:02:47.55
"to strive very hard,
to reach to your goal."
00:02:47.58\00:02:51.48
And the goal of Islam
or goal of God Almighty
00:02:51.51\00:02:56.92
mentioned in the
Holy Quran are the message
00:02:56.95\00:02:59.86
which the Prophet
Muhammad gave to the people
00:02:59.89\00:03:02.43
is message of peace,
love, understand--understanding,
00:03:02.46\00:03:06.55
respect to other people.
00:03:06.58\00:03:08.34
And moreover, the
fundamental thing in Islam
00:03:08.37\00:03:13.54
which for the person who follow
00:03:13.57\00:03:15.00
the religion of
Islam is self reformation
00:03:15.03\00:03:17.87
that is more important.
00:03:17.90\00:03:20.08
So therefore, the first
jihad is self reformation.
00:03:20.11\00:03:23.56
That person should
reform and come closer to God
00:03:23.59\00:03:26.68
clean as-- Yeah.
00:03:26.71\00:03:28.36
Now I've read the
Quran through and it's true.
00:03:28.39\00:03:30.04
That is a very reasonable
and consistent application
00:03:30.07\00:03:33.86
of the term, jihad.
00:03:33.89\00:03:35.61
But it seems to me
that in Saudi Arabia,
00:03:35.64\00:03:39.42
the Wahhabist view point
it's parallel in Christianity
00:03:39.45\00:03:43.48
or the Christian
militia type people.
00:03:43.51\00:03:47.18
You know, in this country
there are people that take
00:03:47.21\00:03:50.78
very hard things from
the Old Testament usually
00:03:50.81\00:03:53.36
and some from the New Testament,
00:03:53.39\00:03:54.61
but mostly the Old Testament.
00:03:54.64\00:03:56.09
And they put militarism
on it and they are going to
00:03:56.12\00:03:59.36
get a sword and go
out and defend the faith
00:03:59.39\00:04:02.59
and advance the faith.
00:04:02.62\00:04:04.44
And I--I do believe
that in the Wahhabist
00:04:04.48\00:04:08.93
viewpoint, well,
it's a perversion.
00:04:08.96\00:04:12.79
They've also picked up on
a parallel usage of jihad.
00:04:12.82\00:04:16.93
I mean it usually
means spiritual battle,
00:04:16.96\00:04:19.46
but it from Muhammad's
time on, I see some evidence
00:04:19.49\00:04:22.87
that jihad was
contending for the faith.
00:04:22.90\00:04:25.14
You know, the Bible is
contending for the faith
00:04:25.17\00:04:27.25
and opposing
wickedness and sometimes
00:04:27.28\00:04:30.12
they literally took our palms.
00:04:30.15\00:04:32.84
And so I think
yes, it's a perversion,
00:04:32.87\00:04:34.83
but it's not, not a fabrication
00:04:34.86\00:04:37.41
I think it exists
there, but they made it
00:04:37.44\00:04:39.52
the main application of jihad.
00:04:39.55\00:04:42.28
As I mentioned in the beginning,
00:04:42.31\00:04:43.81
I started that this is
the reason that the founder
00:04:43.84\00:04:46.10
of the
Ahmadiyya Muslim Community
00:04:46.13\00:04:47.70
was raised this
time as Imam Mahdi
00:04:47.73\00:04:50.29
and a promised
Messiah, to correct the errors
00:04:50.32\00:04:52.88
taking place among
the Muslims as well,
00:04:52.91\00:04:54.84
so one is jihad also.
00:04:54.87\00:04:56.59
As I mentioned jihad
is three types of jihad.
00:04:56.62\00:04:59.01
One is self-reformation.
00:04:59.04\00:05:00.75
This is number one.
00:05:00.78\00:05:02.39
First you have to
reform come closer to God,
00:05:02.42\00:05:04.95
clean yourself, your
soul, your heart, your mind,
00:05:04.98\00:05:07.85
your thoughts,
everything this is number one.
00:05:07.88\00:05:10.33
Number two, when you
have done this thing,
00:05:10.36\00:05:12.35
second to jihad is to convey
this message of peace, love,
00:05:12.38\00:05:16.42
understanding,
harmony to other people.
00:05:16.45\00:05:18.59
Quran mentioned that.
00:05:18.62\00:05:20.11
(Speaking in
Arabic) Three time jihad.
00:05:20.14\00:05:23.28
That you have to
make jihad with the Quran.
00:05:23.31\00:05:25.67
What Quran says, go
and kill the people?
00:05:25.70\00:05:27.98
It is--this is
the Holy Quran, whole,
00:05:28.01\00:05:30.28
this is book, Holy Quran.
00:05:30.31\00:05:31.87
Does it says go and kill
00:05:31.90\00:05:33.20
the innocent people like that?
00:05:33.23\00:05:34.94
No, no, no. That is not a jihad.
00:05:34.97\00:05:36.51
Correct.
00:05:36.54\00:05:37.57
So jihad means
that convey the teaching
00:05:37.60\00:05:40.24
of the Holy Quran to the people,
00:05:40.27\00:05:41.62
this is second kind of jihad.
00:05:41.65\00:05:42.99
The third of jihad is defensive.
00:05:43.02\00:05:46.12
In case, in case, that
somebody attack upon you.
00:05:46.15\00:05:50.66
So you are granted permission
only to defend yourself,
00:05:50.69\00:05:54.58
no aggression at all
in any kind of things.
00:05:54.61\00:05:57.16
You're right.
00:05:57.19\00:05:58.93
I'm glad you brought this up.
00:05:58.96\00:05:59.99
Because I had forgot.
00:06:00.02\00:06:01.05
And I hadn't mentioned this,
00:06:01.08\00:06:02.18
but I did hear a
long discussion once
00:06:02.21\00:06:06.19
with several
Imams of, not Ahmadiyya,
00:06:06.22\00:06:10.03
Ahmadiyya
community, but from Shias
00:06:10.06\00:06:12.56
and Sunnis and they
were discussing jihad.
00:06:12.59\00:06:16.61
And they made a
comment that I know
00:06:16.64\00:06:18.20
is in the Quran and
it's a very clear distinction
00:06:18.23\00:06:20.64
between at least
the sayings of Jesus
00:06:20.67\00:06:22.75
in the New Testament.
00:06:22.78\00:06:24.24
Jesus said to turn your cheek.
00:06:24.27\00:06:26.61
Yeah.
00:06:26.64\00:06:27.97
And to forgive,
you know, someone takes
00:06:28.00\00:06:30.27
something get one coat,
you give them another piece
00:06:30.30\00:06:32.65
of clothing.
00:06:32.68\00:06:33.78
And most Christians have
great trouble doing that.
00:06:33.81\00:06:37.52
But these Imams said
that in Islam if you hit me
00:06:37.55\00:06:41.53
once I hit twice. You know, I--
00:06:41.56\00:06:43.59
This is also not a
teaching of the Quran.
00:06:43.62\00:06:45.93
Well, but--
00:06:45.96\00:06:47.91
The Quran says--
00:06:47.94\00:06:48.98
But Muhammad does say
when you're attacked you--you
00:06:49.01\00:06:53.55
respond strongly.
00:06:53.58\00:06:54.61
No, no.
00:06:54.64\00:06:55.67
What--let me what Quran says,
00:06:55.70\00:06:57.24
what Prophet Muhammad
says is matched to each other.
00:06:57.27\00:07:00.03
It does not clash,
otherwise there will be
00:07:00.06\00:07:02.47
no clue for anything at all.
00:07:02.50\00:07:04.30
Muhammad is, peace be on Him,
00:07:04.33\00:07:05.93
he was the
first person to follow
00:07:05.96\00:07:06.99
the teaching of the Quran.
00:07:07.02\00:07:08.27
Then his followers are going to.
00:07:08.30\00:07:09.93
What Quran says that
first is forgiveness,
00:07:09.96\00:07:13.23
if somebody transgressing
against you, forgive.
00:07:13.26\00:07:17.11
If you're forgiveness increases
00:07:17.14\00:07:18.77
in his transgression
then take the revenge,
00:07:18.80\00:07:23.84
but not exceed the limit.
00:07:23.87\00:07:25.62
It is same manner,
same amount, same manner,
00:07:25.65\00:07:30.08
not double, not anything at all.
00:07:30.11\00:07:32.79
Now it doesn't
use the term double.
00:07:32.82\00:07:34.24
They did in this
discussion. Right, right.
00:07:34.27\00:07:35.98
But it does say
to resist strongly
00:07:36.01\00:07:38.78
if you are attacked then in--
00:07:38.81\00:07:40.57
Defense is allowed.
00:07:40.60\00:07:41.78
And that's why you
were saying this is,
00:07:41.81\00:07:43.51
but the language is--
00:07:43.54\00:07:45.33
Yeah. Of course.
00:07:45.36\00:07:46.40
It gives some
encouragement to people
00:07:46.43\00:07:50.06
like Al-Qaeda, who
are incorrect theologians,
00:07:50.09\00:07:54.82
but they see it there
and they're running with it.
00:07:54.85\00:07:57.16
Yeah.
00:07:57.19\00:07:59.20
So Quran says, "first
thing is forgiveness."
00:07:59.23\00:08:02.92
Even somebody
transgress against you,
00:08:02.95\00:08:05.18
if somebody beat you.
00:08:05.21\00:08:06.30
So first thing
in Quran and Islam
00:08:06.33\00:08:08.79
and Prophet
Muhammad say forgiveness.
00:08:08.82\00:08:11.60
If your forgiveness--
00:08:11.63\00:08:13.62
If the world could
follow throughout that principle
00:08:13.65\00:08:16.17
life would be wonderful Yeah.
00:08:16.20\00:08:17.50
Of course.
00:08:17.53\00:08:18.59
As Christians,
Muslims and other beliefs.
00:08:18.62\00:08:20.02
Of course.
00:08:20.05\00:08:21.20
No religion teaches
tolerance, ah, sorry,
00:08:21.23\00:08:22.97
no religion
teaches the transgression
00:08:23.00\00:08:24.97
and terrorist
activities, no religion.
00:08:25.00\00:08:27.26
So we believe all
religion came from God.
00:08:27.29\00:08:30.52
All messengers came from God.
00:08:30.55\00:08:32.30
They were all holy.
00:08:32.33\00:08:33.53
They were all divine personality
00:08:33.56\00:08:35.40
and they delivered the
message, wonderful manner
00:08:35.43\00:08:38.15
and that love God, God is one.
00:08:38.18\00:08:41.78
And respect the humanity.
00:08:41.81\00:08:43.63
This is the message.
00:08:43.66\00:08:46.10
All religions or at least
most religions can easily,
00:08:46.13\00:08:50.99
they will turn
into the situation
00:08:51.02\00:08:53.80
where a believer
seen the faith rejected
00:08:53.83\00:08:57.30
or insulted or challenged
00:08:57.33\00:09:00.93
can feel that they
are the agent of God
00:09:00.96\00:09:03.14
to execute some,
action on them, and I think
00:09:03.17\00:09:06.55
that's false 'cause we
can't know like God knows
00:09:06.58\00:09:10.89
and we should forgive,
but the Quran and the Bible,
00:09:10.92\00:09:14.81
the Old Testament particularly,
if someone is unbalanced,
00:09:14.84\00:09:17.19
they sometimes can believe
they are the agent of God
00:09:17.22\00:09:19.52
to visit judgment on someone.
00:09:19.55\00:09:21.61
That you know, as
we mentioned earlier
00:09:21.64\00:09:23.94
that they're different
belief people are holding
00:09:23.97\00:09:26.28
and their action also
sometime does not--do not match
00:09:26.31\00:09:30.34
with the teaching
of their own faith.
00:09:30.37\00:09:32.76
So it is what is
happening in this world.
00:09:32.79\00:09:34.25
And that is the reason
that this is the end of
00:09:34.28\00:09:37.28
the world coming
closer and there should be
00:09:37.31\00:09:39.92
reformer from God
who will come and unite
00:09:39.95\00:09:42.78
all the people together.
00:09:42.81\00:09:43.84
Yeah, yeah.
00:09:43.87\00:09:45.38
Well, we certainly need
the spirit of tolerance,
00:09:45.41\00:09:47.63
which is from God, but
at the same time holding
00:09:47.66\00:09:52.37
to particular beliefs.
00:09:52.40\00:09:55.02
I need to throw this
in for our TV program
00:09:55.05\00:09:56.92
and for the discussion here.
00:09:56.95\00:09:59.43
As the Seventh-day
Adventist Christian,
00:09:59.46\00:10:00.73
who studied prophecy, I
think one of the great risks
00:10:00.76\00:10:04.16
of the end of the time
is that people will become
00:10:04.19\00:10:07.36
so frightened by
violence and evil
00:10:07.39\00:10:10.22
and all the rest of
that they will join together
00:10:10.25\00:10:13.22
in sort of a false
religious alliance,
00:10:13.25\00:10:15.85
where they put aside
all of their understandings
00:10:15.88\00:10:19.22
of God and just
sort of, you know,
00:10:19.25\00:10:21.50
is the term that we
use "kumbaya," sort of
00:10:21.53\00:10:24.01
I'm okay, you're
okay, God loves us all.
00:10:24.04\00:10:27.84
I think as a
Muslim and as a Christian
00:10:27.87\00:10:29.89
we can understand and agree
that God has very particular
00:10:29.92\00:10:33.37
requirements for us, doesn't He?
00:10:33.40\00:10:35.28
We wants us to
live a certain way.
00:10:35.31\00:10:38.20
It's not unimportant.
00:10:38.23\00:10:39.83
We need to keep
to these beliefs.
00:10:39.86\00:10:41.63
Of course.
00:10:41.66\00:10:42.69
We are in this
civilized age this time
00:10:42.72\00:10:45.76
and we know how the world
is heading towards destruction.
00:10:45.79\00:10:50.29
And it is the duty
of the religious leaders
00:10:50.32\00:10:53.38
that they have to
protect people from destruction.
00:10:53.41\00:10:57.22
And unfortunately
it is not happening.
00:10:57.25\00:11:00.02
And Christian
believe, Jewish believe,
00:11:00.05\00:11:03.03
Muslim believe, all believe
that we are coming closer
00:11:03.06\00:11:06.24
to the end of the world.
00:11:06.27\00:11:07.65
But where is
that divine reformer?
00:11:07.68\00:11:09.84
Where is the Messiah?
00:11:09.87\00:11:11.54
Where is that they're
expecting great teacher?
00:11:11.57\00:11:13.84
When He is coming?
00:11:13.87\00:11:15.64
Because this is the
time if He still not coming
00:11:15.67\00:11:19.47
why, why He is--what
He is waiting then for?
00:11:19.50\00:11:23.98
We have to see that point.
00:11:24.01\00:11:25.37
That's the
reason we want to convey
00:11:25.40\00:11:27.08
this message also.
00:11:27.11\00:11:28.42
I thank--I'm very
thankful to you again.
00:11:28.45\00:11:30.64
That Liberty magazine
is doing wonderful job
00:11:30.67\00:11:33.15
and you are bringing
the different ideology
00:11:33.18\00:11:38.43
and viewpoint of the
other faiths in your magazine
00:11:38.46\00:11:42.21
like my two,
three articles that are
00:11:42.24\00:11:44.65
published already on that.
00:11:44.68\00:11:46.63
Yeah, on that.
00:11:46.66\00:11:47.69
So my point is that
00:11:47.72\00:11:49.50
the people are
heading towards destruction.
00:11:49.53\00:11:52.18
And we have not to save them
00:11:52.21\00:11:53.79
physically also,
spiritually also.
00:11:53.82\00:11:56.09
Absolutely.
00:11:56.12\00:11:57.15
And for that person
people are waiting for
00:11:57.18\00:11:59.52
the great
teacher, reformer to come,
00:11:59.55\00:12:01.46
a divine person should come.
00:12:01.49\00:12:03.02
And my question
is only to the world
00:12:03.05\00:12:06.02
that when He is coming?
00:12:06.05\00:12:07.08
When we all die
in the same state?
00:12:07.11\00:12:10.22
Then what time He
will be coming then?
00:12:10.25\00:12:13.68
Well, we'll see that.
00:12:13.71\00:12:18.12
We can theology
here, I hope our viewers
00:12:18.15\00:12:20.10
understand on religious liberty
00:12:20.13\00:12:21.63
and as I reiterated,
it's not necessary to agree
00:12:21.66\00:12:26.18
the same. Of course.
00:12:26.21\00:12:27.77
It's to fend your right
to belief something even
00:12:27.80\00:12:30.12
that I might
find totally incorrect
00:12:30.15\00:12:33.95
and personally offensive.
00:12:33.98\00:12:35.55
But as someone that
believes in religious liberty,
00:12:35.58\00:12:38.31
I have to be
prepared if necessary
00:12:38.34\00:12:40.57
to die to defend your
right to believe something
00:12:40.60\00:12:43.20
that I don't. Of course.
00:12:43.23\00:12:44.56
We've run out of
time on our first half,
00:12:44.59\00:12:47.24
but please viewers stay with us.
00:12:47.27\00:12:49.12
We will be back after
a short break to continue
00:12:49.15\00:12:51.27
this discussion
with Imam Shamshad.
00:12:51.30\00:12:53.61