Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Tina Ramirez
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000216B
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00:06 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:09 Before the break I was talking with Tina Ramirez 00:12 about religious freedom around the world. 00:15 That this is a big world and we haven't even 00:16 really begun to cover it but we talked about 00:19 a few of the significant trends I think. 00:22 Yeah, and you know just to follow up on the one 00:24 that we spoke about before 00:25 this whole idea of the defamation issue 00:27 at the UN and where it is headed. 00:30 Really not just, see you have two issues, 00:32 you have this women in the west 00:34 where they want to just focus on religious discrimination 00:36 in order to really get the Islamic countries 00:39 to realize this isn't about offensive speech 00:42 and doing cartoons that offend you, 00:44 and you just can't restrict speech because you're offended, 00:47 that there are other ways of dealing 00:48 with these things in society 00:50 and if it's matter of true discrimination, 00:52 lets deals with it in the-- 00:54 within the prong of religious discrimination. 00:56 But on the other hand you have the Islamic countries 00:58 that want to restrict speech. 01:01 And what's interesting is just, when you talk to those countries 01:06 and when you look at blasphemy laws 01:07 and what they're trying to really promote. 01:09 Essentially in their viewpoint they want to say 01:13 and they want to create international standard that says 01:16 that religion is equivalent to race. 01:20 So if you're born with a certain racial identity 01:24 that you're also born with a religious identity, 01:27 and that means you can change it. 01:29 And for somebody to change it 01:30 or to in anyway impugn it or offend it, 01:34 then that would be a violation 01:35 of your fundamental human rights, 01:37 but race and religion are very different. 01:39 And religion is not an immutable characteristic 01:42 and it's so important for us to know that 01:45 and be able to respond and to say, 01:46 no, religion is a choice. 01:48 And you might be born into a religious family 01:51 but ultimately it's an individual choice. 01:53 And it's something that, is really something 01:56 that you deal with within your internal forum 01:58 and between you and God. 02:00 This matter of religious identity is interesting 02:06 and you reminded me the interview I had with, 02:10 what is his name Abedi, Mohammed Abedi. 02:15 He was an advisor to the previous president of Iran. 02:18 We got to talking about this, 02:20 and he said to me, at one point he says, 02:21 if you've been born in Iran, what would you have been? 02:24 I said probably born as a Muslim. 02:26 He says, if I'd been born in America, 02:28 I had been born a Christian. 02:29 Well, good chance, he says, let just leave it that way. 02:35 So he's saying exactly what you're saying. 02:37 But this assumption but it shouldn't be. 02:40 No, because the problem is that we are global world. 02:42 And people are not, they don't choose where they're born. 02:44 No, they don't choose where they're born. 02:45 But once they gain intelligence 02:47 and could look around this big world 02:49 and then spiritual realities, they should have the right 02:51 to then make their own determination 02:53 not be categorized by geography, or you know how close they are 02:57 to mosque or synagogue or whatever. 03:00 No, it's absolutely true but I mean it is interesting 03:03 because the trend to restrict speech 03:07 is a very pernicious one and it's one 03:09 that not even Christians all completely understand 03:11 because, and the number of countries 03:13 like for instance in Sudan, 03:15 where you have Imams or in Pakistan for instance, 03:18 leading attacks on Christian villagers simply because, 03:23 you know, they don't like them 03:25 because they're Christians. It shouldn't be. 03:26 And so they use them the loudspeakers of the mosque 03:29 and they call for an attack and they go 03:30 and accuse them of blasphemy or something 03:32 and they have the Christians thrown into prison. 03:34 It's not just in Pakistan. 03:37 In some Eastern Orthodox countries 03:40 we've had plenty of cases where the orthodox priest 03:43 leads the same crowd where they blow horn 03:45 and they tear down and trash the church and rough up. 03:49 Yeah, I mean it seems to be worldwide 03:51 and something I was going to say earlier 03:52 that we should point out 03:55 and perhaps in some countries they remember this. 03:57 But western Christian tradition 04:00 has had its flirtation with the blasphemy laws. 04:02 Yeah, absolutely, I mean, there's a prominence. 04:04 In this country in the early days 04:07 you could be held in the court for blasphemy. 04:09 Yeah, I mean the story of Mary Dyer's 04:10 probably the most well known one, 04:12 who in puritan in New England, 04:16 and it was just a Massachusetts colony, 04:19 where they had a law against blasphemy and was going to, 04:21 was put to death anybody who is a puritan, 04:24 that would or there was a Quaker that would come in, 04:26 start preaching a different from of Christianity 04:32 than what they have there. 04:33 And she was eventually 04:34 because she kept coming back and preaching, 04:36 she was eventually hanged, hanged for it, yeah. 04:39 But I mean, that's obviously changed 04:42 and we've learned a lot about puritans 04:44 since then but it just goes to show 04:45 that this role of religion in society 04:48 and navigating between governments and individuals 04:52 and how individuals relate to God and all of that, 04:56 it's just such an important characteristic of every society 04:58 and we all deal with it and it's better to learn 05:00 from each other than not. 05:02 And I think that's what Istanbul process 05:04 is trying to do is learn best practices 05:06 and learn how to get along. 05:08 Another great thing actually that has happened recently 05:11 is there is this Global Charter of Conscience, 05:14 that was written recently. 05:15 Where did that originate it from? 05:17 It's just there was a group of academics 05:19 that came together and realized that we live in a global society 05:24 where we have to learn how to get along 05:26 even with different views, 05:27 and this isn't a matter of tolerance, 05:29 it's a matter of pluralism 05:31 in respecting different opposing views 05:34 and having an open space and far more people can discuss 05:37 and freely exchange those ideas. 05:39 So this Global Charter of Conscience 05:41 is really a great document and something 05:43 that I would encourage everybody to look at 05:46 and there's a Facebook account that they can like it. 05:49 I'm going to read it myself. Yeah. 05:50 So what are they connecting with it, 05:51 just to put it out there and they change constitute so 05:54 or they are moving it through the UN or something like. 05:56 No, well, it was introduced 05:57 at the European parliament last year, 05:59 but really it's just a global public response 06:02 to the defamation issue and a number of other 06:05 controversies over restrictions on speech 06:07 and challenges to religious freedom to say. 06:10 This is what religious freedom is. 06:11 This is what we has the court of public opinion think, 06:16 you know, religious freedom should be 06:18 and we would encourage you as an international society 06:21 to live it up to this ideal standard 06:22 and so there was a group of academics 06:24 from many different religious persuasions 06:26 that came together and drafted it 06:28 and it's a great statement from the public 06:32 of this is what we really should be reaching towards 06:34 and so obviously we have the Universal Declaration 06:37 of Human Rights and a number of other international documents. 06:39 It is a very good statement, I mean this is. Absolutely. 06:41 In its own way, it's powerful, and it's protective 06:44 I think is the U.S. Constitution religious clauses. 06:49 We've to see people implement it. 06:50 Absolutely, I want to throw in something 06:52 that I mentioned on this program before, 06:53 but I like your take on it. 06:55 And I think it's connected to the case 06:56 that Becket Fund took sometime ago. 07:01 In Australia there was this Protestant evangelist 07:06 that was taking a meeting and he was explaining 07:09 some issues between Christianity and Islam. 07:11 He had text from the Bible and the Quran 07:13 on the wall and explaining. I don't know what he said. 07:16 But the Muslim in the audience objected 07:18 to his presentation and brought to sued against him 07:21 and it went to trial and the judge said 07:25 something to him interesting he says 07:27 it's not because he defendant, he wasn't maligning Islam. 07:30 He said it's not important whether or not 07:33 you really did mean to malign them 07:37 or say something innately offensive 07:40 but the defense was taken. 07:43 Now what defense do we have about that's against 07:45 that sort of thinking if the crime 07:49 is defined by the listener or the hearer. 07:51 No, it's extremely dangerous and it's not just 07:53 a religious freedom problem, that's a universal problem, 07:55 everybody should be concerned with it. 07:57 I think, think is because I see a huge threat there. 08:00 Yeah, I was actually interestingly enough 08:02 I was on a panel with Pastor Danny Scott, 08:04 you were referring to him in Australia 08:06 in 2007 at United Nations. 08:09 And Asma Jahangir the former special repertoire 08:12 for religious freedom was also on that panel 08:14 and a number of other people 08:16 and it was fascinating because during that panel 08:19 Asma Jahangir said, instead of being offended, 08:22 we need to learn how to be less offended by others 08:25 and just to have tougher skins. 08:27 And I think that exactly what needs to happen, 08:30 but in a lot of these countries, 08:34 religion there is not just used to this at exchange of ideas 08:38 that's challenging and it's unfortunate 08:41 because you should be never afraid 08:44 of your own ideas being weakened, 08:46 when they're challenged. 08:48 Usually they're strengthened 08:49 by a stronger debate and so hopefully. 08:53 Intellectually strengthened in your mind 08:54 because I know, I often have discussions 08:56 with someone is when they challenge something 08:58 that I hold, did I either rethink it, 09:00 strengthen it or find that it's a bad point, I do away with it. 09:03 But in most of the societies- 09:04 It's not an innate threat to my views. 09:06 They are not raised to learn 09:09 that that's a good thing that this, 09:11 the challenges and going back and forth 09:13 and so it's a huge mentality shift 09:16 that we need to see happening 09:18 in order to assure the real true freedom, 09:20 the freedom of expression, of religion and everything else 09:23 that entails really can take root in the society, 09:27 so that true freedom can flourish. 09:29 What are the countries in a few seconds that we have left, 09:33 what are the countries do you see is either posing 09:35 a special challenge or have a great possibilities. 09:38 Yeah. What about China? 09:40 Oh, I don't know. You might add something. 09:41 I don't know if I want to mention China. Well, I couldn't. 09:43 But I think that one of the encouraging things 09:45 that I see in China is that 09:47 there are so many religious liberty lawyers 09:49 and human rights lawyers 09:50 that are actually challenging the system. 09:53 And you don't see that in many close countries, 09:56 but you see it in China. Absolutely, I agree with you. 09:58 It's not a good system but it's not as close 10:00 as people make it I think it's a dynamically changing culture 10:04 that's really allowing people to talk up and it will tend. 10:07 I think it will work itself out given enough time. 10:09 Well, I don't know about that but I do know 10:11 that I'm extremely impressed by the brave, 10:13 the braveness or the boldness. 10:15 These people that are suffering horribly for their freedom. 10:17 Yeah, I mean, you think if you just look 10:18 at Chen Guangcheng, the Chinese-- 10:21 He was honored recently. That was recently. 10:23 The Lantos Foundation. Right. 10:25 Well, because he was a blind human rights advocate in China. 10:29 He was pro-life, he stood up for human dignity, 10:32 religious freedom and he fought so much. 10:35 And he was in prison, he was under house arrest, 10:37 his family suffered. 10:38 He finally was hospitalized 10:41 and then escaped to the U.S. embassy 10:43 and, you know, through all that 10:44 and he ended up getting to the United States. 10:46 It's an inspiring story. 10:48 It is and I'm just amazed that people like that in China 10:51 and so many other lawyers there who have 10:56 amidst all of that suffering and opposition 10:58 have really stood up for religious freedom 11:00 and human rights and made such a difference there. 11:02 And I think if they can do it in China, 11:04 then lawyers and advocates 11:06 in so many countries in the world can do it. 11:08 And there are plenty of problems from Sudan to China to Europe 11:13 and even the United States but that more 11:15 that we can embolden people to stand up for freedom, 11:19 the greater our rights will continue to exist. 11:25 The world is a big place. 11:27 A few decades ago I remember walking with my family 11:31 and a missionary family in Kandahar, Afghanistan. 11:36 It seems like another place in another world 11:39 but it was one of those distant corners 11:41 that we now hear about in the daily news. 11:44 But I remember it well because we were walking 11:46 with this missionary family, they had a daughter, 11:49 actually two daughters, one about my age, 11:51 and I was the age to notice and I'll never forget 11:54 walking in those beautiful gardens there and that picture, 11:57 a beautiful spot of Afghanistan 12:01 and talking about many things including religion. 12:03 I will never forget that after a few days back at home 12:07 and remembering the great trip, 12:09 we heard that family had returned 12:11 to their missionary duties in Pakistan. 12:14 A thief broke in, broke down the door 12:17 killed the father and left the family destitute. 12:20 Religious liberty and religious commitment 12:22 is not an abstraction. 12:25 People give their lives for religious duty all the time 12:30 and we need to do all that we can to defend it. 12:33 No matter what 12:34 far distant corner of the world is involved. 12:37 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2014-12-17