Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
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Before the break I was
talking with Tina Ramirez
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about religious
freedom around the world.
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That this is a big
world and we haven't even
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really begun to cover
it but we talked about
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a few of the
significant trends I think.
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Yeah, and you know
just to follow up on the one
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that we spoke about before
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this whole idea of
the defamation issue
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at the UN and
where it is headed.
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Really not just,
see you have two issues,
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you have this women in the west
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where they want to just focus
on religious discrimination
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in order to really
get the Islamic countries
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to realize this isn't
about offensive speech
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and doing
cartoons that offend you,
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and you just can't restrict
speech because you're offended,
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that there are
other ways of dealing
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with these things in society
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and if it's matter
of true discrimination,
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lets deals with it in the--
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within the prong of
religious discrimination.
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But on the other hand you
have the Islamic countries
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that want to restrict speech.
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And what's interesting is just,
when you talk to those countries
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and when you
look at blasphemy laws
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and what they're
trying to really promote.
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Essentially in their
viewpoint they want to say
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and they want to create
international standard that says
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that religion is
equivalent to race.
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So if you're born with
a certain racial identity
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that you're also born
with a religious identity,
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and that means
you can change it.
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And for somebody to change it
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or to in anyway
impugn it or offend it,
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then that would be a violation
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of your
fundamental human rights,
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but race and
religion are very different.
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And religion is not an
immutable characteristic
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and it's so
important for us to know that
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and be able to
respond and to say,
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no, religion is a choice.
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And you might be born
into a religious family
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but ultimately it's
an individual choice.
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And it's something
that, is really something
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that you deal with
within your internal forum
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and between you and God.
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This matter of religious
identity is interesting
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and you reminded me
the interview I had with,
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what is his name
Abedi, Mohammed Abedi.
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He was an advisor to the
previous president of Iran.
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We got to talking about this,
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and he said to me,
at one point he says,
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if you've been born in
Iran, what would you have been?
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I said probably
born as a Muslim.
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He says, if I'd
been born in America,
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I had been born a Christian.
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Well, good chance, he says,
let just leave it that way.
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So he's saying
exactly what you're saying.
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But this assumption
but it shouldn't be.
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No, because the problem
is that we are global world.
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And people are not, they
don't choose where they're born.
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No, they don't
choose where they're born.
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But once they gain intelligence
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and could look
around this big world
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and then spiritual realities,
they should have the right
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to then make
their own determination
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not be categorized by geography,
or you know how close they are
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to mosque or
synagogue or whatever.
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No, it's absolutely true
but I mean it is interesting
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because the trend
to restrict speech
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is a very
pernicious one and it's one
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that not even Christians
all completely understand
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because, and the
number of countries
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like for instance in Sudan,
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where you have Imams or
in Pakistan for instance,
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leading attacks on Christian
villagers simply because,
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you know, they don't like them
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because they're
Christians. It shouldn't be.
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And so they use them the
loudspeakers of the mosque
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and they call for
an attack and they go
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and accuse them of
blasphemy or something
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and they have the
Christians thrown into prison.
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It's not just in Pakistan.
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In some Eastern
Orthodox countries
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we've had plenty of
cases where the orthodox priest
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leads the same
crowd where they blow horn
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and they tear down and
trash the church and rough up.
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Yeah, I mean it
seems to be worldwide
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and something I was
going to say earlier
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that we should point out
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and perhaps in some
countries they remember this.
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But western Christian tradition
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has had its flirtation
with the blasphemy laws.
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Yeah, absolutely, I
mean, there's a prominence.
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In this country
in the early days
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you could be held in
the court for blasphemy.
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Yeah, I mean the
story of Mary Dyer's
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probably the
most well known one,
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who in puritan in New England,
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and it was just a
Massachusetts colony,
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where they had a law against
blasphemy and was going to,
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was put to death
anybody who is a puritan,
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that would or there was a
Quaker that would come in,
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start preaching a
different from of Christianity
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than what they have there.
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And she was eventually
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because she kept
coming back and preaching,
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she was eventually
hanged, hanged for it, yeah.
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But I mean,
that's obviously changed
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and we've learned
a lot about puritans
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since then but
it just goes to show
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that this role of
religion in society
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and navigating between
governments and individuals
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and how individuals
relate to God and all of that,
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it's just such an important
characteristic of every society
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and we all deal with it
and it's better to learn
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from each other than not.
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And I think that's
what Istanbul process
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is trying to do is
learn best practices
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and learn how to get along.
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Another great thing actually
that has happened recently
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is there is this
Global Charter of Conscience,
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that was written recently.
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Where did that
originate it from?
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It's just there was
a group of academics
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that came together and realized
that we live in a global society
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where we have to
learn how to get along
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even with different views,
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and this isn't a
matter of tolerance,
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it's a matter of pluralism
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in respecting
different opposing views
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and having an open space
and far more people can discuss
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and freely exchange those ideas.
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So this Global
Charter of Conscience
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is really a great
document and something
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that I would
encourage everybody to look at
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and there's a Facebook
account that they can like it.
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I'm going to
read it myself. Yeah.
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So what are they
connecting with it,
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just to put it out there
and they change constitute so
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or they are moving it through
the UN or something like.
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No, well, it was introduced
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at the European
parliament last year,
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but really it's just
a global public response
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to the defamation
issue and a number of other
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controversies over
restrictions on speech
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and challenges to
religious freedom to say.
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This is what
religious freedom is.
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This is what we has the
court of public opinion think,
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you know,
religious freedom should be
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and we would encourage you
as an international society
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to live it up to
this ideal standard
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and so there was
a group of academics
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from many different
religious persuasions
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that came
together and drafted it
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and it's a great
statement from the public
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of this is what we really
should be reaching towards
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and so obviously we have
the Universal Declaration
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of Human Rights and a number of
other international documents.
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It is a very good statement,
I mean this is. Absolutely.
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In its own way, it's
powerful, and it's protective
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I think is the U.S.
Constitution religious clauses.
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We've to see
people implement it.
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Absolutely, I want
to throw in something
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that I mentioned on
this program before,
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but I like your take on it.
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And I think it's
connected to the case
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that Becket Fund
took sometime ago.
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In Australia there was
this Protestant evangelist
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that was taking a
meeting and he was explaining
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some issues between
Christianity and Islam.
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He had text from
the Bible and the Quran
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on the wall and explaining.
I don't know what he said.
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But the Muslim in
the audience objected
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to his presentation and
brought to sued against him
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and it went to
trial and the judge said
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something to him
interesting he says
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it's not because he defendant,
he wasn't maligning Islam.
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He said it's not
important whether or not
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you really did
mean to malign them
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or say something
innately offensive
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but the defense was taken.
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Now what defense do we
have about that's against
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that sort of
thinking if the crime
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is defined by the
listener or the hearer.
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No, it's extremely
dangerous and it's not just
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a religious freedom problem,
that's a universal problem,
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everybody should
be concerned with it.
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I think, think is because
I see a huge threat there.
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Yeah, I was
actually interestingly enough
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I was on a panel
with Pastor Danny Scott,
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you were referring
to him in Australia
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in 2007 at United Nations.
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And Asma Jahangir the
former special repertoire
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for religious freedom
was also on that panel
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and a number of other people
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and it was fascinating
because during that panel
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Asma Jahangir said,
instead of being offended,
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we need to learn how to
be less offended by others
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and just to have tougher skins.
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And I think that
exactly what needs to happen,
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but in a lot of these countries,
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religion there is not just used
to this at exchange of ideas
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that's challenging
and it's unfortunate
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because you
should be never afraid
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of your own
ideas being weakened,
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when they're challenged.
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Usually they're strengthened
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by a stronger
debate and so hopefully.
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Intellectually
strengthened in your mind
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because I know, I
often have discussions
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with someone is when
they challenge something
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that I hold, did
I either rethink it,
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strengthen it or find that it's
a bad point, I do away with it.
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But in most of the societies-
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It's not an innate
threat to my views.
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They are not raised to learn
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that that's a
good thing that this,
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the challenges and
going back and forth
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and so it's a
huge mentality shift
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that we need to see happening
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in order to assure
the real true freedom,
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the freedom of expression,
of religion and everything else
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that entails really can
take root in the society,
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so that true
freedom can flourish.
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What are the countries in a
few seconds that we have left,
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what are the countries
do you see is either posing
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a special challenge or
have a great possibilities.
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Yeah. What about China?
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Oh, I don't know.
You might add something.
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I don't know if I want to
mention China. Well, I couldn't.
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But I think that one
of the encouraging things
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that I see in China is that
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there are so many
religious liberty lawyers
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and human rights lawyers
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that are actually
challenging the system.
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And you don't see that
in many close countries,
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but you see it in China.
Absolutely, I agree with you.
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It's not a good
system but it's not as close
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as people make it I think it's
a dynamically changing culture
00:10:00.32\00:10:04.10
that's really allowing people
to talk up and it will tend.
00:10:04.13\00:10:07.58
I think it will work
itself out given enough time.
00:10:07.61\00:10:09.74
Well, I don't know
about that but I do know
00:10:09.77\00:10:11.32
that I'm extremely
impressed by the brave,
00:10:11.35\00:10:13.82
the braveness or the boldness.
00:10:13.85\00:10:15.27
These people that are suffering
horribly for their freedom.
00:10:15.30\00:10:17.07
Yeah, I mean, you
think if you just look
00:10:17.10\00:10:18.21
at Chen
Guangcheng, the Chinese--
00:10:18.24\00:10:21.70
He was honored
recently. That was recently.
00:10:21.73\00:10:23.20
The Lantos Foundation. Right.
00:10:23.23\00:10:25.22
Well, because he was a blind
human rights advocate in China.
00:10:25.25\00:10:29.71
He was pro-life, he
stood up for human dignity,
00:10:29.74\00:10:32.64
religious freedom
and he fought so much.
00:10:32.67\00:10:35.56
And he was in prison,
he was under house arrest,
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his family suffered.
00:10:37.49\00:10:38.87
He finally was hospitalized
00:10:38.90\00:10:41.24
and then escaped
to the U.S. embassy
00:10:41.27\00:10:43.53
and, you know, through all that
00:10:43.56\00:10:44.94
and he ended up
getting to the United States.
00:10:44.97\00:10:46.86
It's an inspiring story.
00:10:46.89\00:10:48.14
It is and I'm just amazed
that people like that in China
00:10:48.17\00:10:51.48
and so many other
lawyers there who have
00:10:51.51\00:10:56.16
amidst all of that
suffering and opposition
00:10:56.19\00:10:58.55
have really stood up
for religious freedom
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and human rights and
made such a difference there.
00:11:00.47\00:11:02.36
And I think if
they can do it in China,
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then lawyers and advocates
00:11:04.36\00:11:06.13
in so many countries
in the world can do it.
00:11:06.16\00:11:08.12
And there are plenty of problems
from Sudan to China to Europe
00:11:08.15\00:11:13.53
and even the United
States but that more
00:11:13.56\00:11:15.67
that we can embolden
people to stand up for freedom,
00:11:15.70\00:11:19.01
the greater our rights
will continue to exist.
00:11:19.04\00:11:22.36
The world is a big place.
00:11:25.51\00:11:27.96
A few decades ago I
remember walking with my family
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and a missionary family
in Kandahar, Afghanistan.
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It seems like another
place in another world
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but it was one of
those distant corners
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that we now hear
about in the daily news.
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But I remember it well
because we were walking
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with this missionary
family, they had a daughter,
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actually two
daughters, one about my age,
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and I was the age to
notice and I'll never forget
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walking in those beautiful
gardens there and that picture,
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a beautiful spot of Afghanistan
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and talking about many
things including religion.
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I will never forget that
after a few days back at home
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and remembering the great trip,
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we heard that
family had returned
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to their
missionary duties in Pakistan.
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A thief broke in,
broke down the door
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killed the father and
left the family destitute.
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Religious liberty
and religious commitment
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is not an abstraction.
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People give their lives
for religious duty all the time
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and we need to do all
that we can to defend it.
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No matter what
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far distant corner of
the world is involved.
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For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
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