Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Tina Ramirez
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000215B
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00:06 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:08 We had a short break 00:10 and we need to continue this discussion with Tina. 00:13 I found it very interesting, so interesting 00:15 that I let it slide a little on the first half 00:18 and it went longer than necessary, 00:19 so we would have to move along, 00:21 I know you have a very interesting life, 00:23 I read your, it's not your full life 00:26 but your bio-curriculum vitae or whatever. 00:30 And I know you had some interesting assignments 00:33 right up to the present. 00:34 So, you know, way to from the international commission, 00:39 from the U.S. Commission, rather, on religious freedom, 00:42 where did you from there? 00:43 Yeah, so after I worked at the commission, 00:45 I was recruited to come work for a congressman in a fellowship, 00:49 where I focused solely on international religious freedom, 00:51 and I did that for four years, and I was the only staffer 00:54 up there at the time, 00:55 that worked solely on religious freedom. 00:57 There was another person there right 00:58 when I got there and she left soon afterwards. 01:02 But it was really a great time, because I got to build 01:04 the International Religious Freedom Caucus, 01:06 that's in Congress. 01:07 And at the time, the congressman had started it 01:10 with congressman, Emanuel Cleaver from Kansas City, 01:13 and yeah, so it was a bipartisan Caucus 01:16 and they only had a handful of members and they brought me 01:19 into basically build this caucus up. 01:21 Well, they have over 60 members now, 01:23 but they had over 50 when I left, 01:25 and it was completely bipartisan, 01:27 half republicans, half democrats and the goal was that, 01:31 prior to the caucus being formed, 01:33 religious freedom really wasn't a relevant issue in Congress. 01:37 The International Religious Freedom Act, of 1998 01:39 had passed but since then it kind of repeated out 01:43 in its interest level on the hill, 01:44 so my job was to make it interesting 01:47 to democrats and republicans and not just to Christians 01:50 but to people of all faiths, and so we defended everybody 01:53 and I mentioned the case that we worked on in a previous episode 01:57 of Kareem Abdul Amer, the blogger from Egypt. 02:00 And what we did was simply worked to help defend people 02:03 that are imprisoned and change laws and policies in countries 02:08 to ensure that U.S. foreign policy 02:10 really this matter of concern. 02:12 Now how does the U.S. affect other countries statements 02:18 of their own citizens on religious freedom. 02:21 I mean, how can U.S. focus on religious freedom-- 02:23 No, it's a good question. 02:25 Well, I guess one example was, we held a hearing on Egypt. 02:29 And we had the, at the time the, 02:33 he was the dean of Yale Law School, Harold Koh, 02:39 but prior to that he was the assistant secretary 02:43 for the Department for Human Rights 02:44 at the state department and then since then, 02:46 he was the head legal council for the state department 02:48 and a secretary to Clinton. 02:50 So we had him testify as well as a number of other communities 02:52 about the religious persecution occurring in Egypt. 02:55 And this was back in 2007. 02:57 Well, because of all the work that we did on Egypt, 03:00 we also introduced legislation 03:01 to withhold foreign aid from Egypt. 03:03 Now I know that's happened recently, 03:05 but this is back in 2007, when it wasn't really a hot topic. 03:09 But we introduced a resolution that I wrote 03:12 that would have withheld aid, 03:13 if they were going to continue persecuting people. 03:16 And the Egyptians took notice 03:17 because they received 50, I think, 50 billion. 03:22 It's a huge amount. 03:23 Some huge amount, annually. I know it's billions. 03:25 Yeah, 50 million, and I forget 03:27 and it was 50 billion over this-- 03:29 Yes, but not necessarily over year. 03:31 I think I am sorry, it was like 03:32 1.25 billion a year something ridiculous. 03:35 But they--because they were so concerned about their money, 03:39 that they felt like was their money, 03:40 not the American tax payers money. 03:43 They called me into their office and they said, 03:45 Tina, what is this? 03:46 I just saw this on the TV, the congressman was on the floor 03:49 and he was introducing this resolution. 03:51 What does this mean for our aid? 03:52 And I said, well, you know, 03:53 hopefully we'll get to cut your aid, 03:54 because you are persecuting people. 03:57 So they definitely paid attention and then-- 03:59 I can tell you, they're tough to deal. 04:01 Yeah, not an easy one, they were, yeah. 04:04 Yeah, and they-- 04:06 But let me tell you one reason, it's in the background 04:09 Hillary Clinton spoke it on Religious Liberty dinner once, 04:12 said some really good things. 04:14 But I was mystified once, not too long ago, 04:16 before she left the state department. 04:20 She went to China and she told them that their relationship 04:23 was so important that, the civil rights 04:26 and things like that were secondary. 04:28 The human rights were off the table, that's what she said. 04:30 That was one of the-- 04:31 I rather regret, I'm not sure-- 04:32 Yeah, that was regrettable 04:34 and now that's one of the first things she said, 04:35 when she, one of her first visits was to China 04:38 and it was the first bilateral discussion they had in Suzhou, 04:41 made it only about economics and not about religious freedom, 04:44 which is a huge problem, because there are many American, 04:47 Christian businesses operating in China 04:49 to help the Chinese economy, not for any other reason, 04:53 and if you don't have a religious freedom there, 04:55 then they would be able to offer their services, 04:58 I mean, there are many humanitarian groups 05:00 that operate in China, that are just doing it for free, freely. 05:02 I think that was just a huge misstep, 05:04 and I think it was out of sync 05:06 with of from what the U.S. has done. Yeah. 05:08 It has used its influence and its aid in 05:10 and so on that leave us to get some-- 05:14 Well, I had to say that, that there are leverage points 05:18 that we have and aid was one of them with Egypt 05:21 and of course now, that's a little different 05:22 but it depends on which country you're working in 05:26 or you're dealing within and what the leverage points are 05:31 but Egypt was very concerned and so they actually 05:35 put me on a Mica trip, a government sponsor trip 05:38 and to Egypt and I met with a lot of people there. 05:41 Interestingly enough though when I was, 05:43 meeting with, we would have our meetings as part of the trip 05:46 and at night I would meet with all of these other people 05:48 to find out what's really happening in Egypt. 05:50 Because they wine and dine, 05:51 you know they want to make it seem as though, 05:53 you know it's a great country and there's no problems there. 05:55 And as I was meeting with one of the top human rights leaders 05:58 in the country, with two different women 06:01 that had twins, twins, 06:03 that were in court threatened with, 06:06 remove all their children from their home 06:08 because their husbands have both converted to Islam, 06:10 and so the courts were going to take them away. 06:12 This is a huge problem, custody cases concerning religions. 06:15 And so when I was meeting with them, 06:17 the state security called the lawyer on the phone and said, 06:20 why are you there meeting with Tina. 06:21 So they knew who, they knew where I was, 06:24 who I was meeting with and they were monitoring everything. 06:27 And later when the Egyptian authorities came to DC 06:29 and met with us and were offended by 06:32 some other legislation that we've introduced. 06:34 They wanted to know, 06:36 they wanted to make it seem as though, 06:38 they are great country, and I said, 06:39 but I was there and I know that you are monitoring everything. 06:43 Anyway, there are leverage points in different countries, 06:46 it just depends, so for number of years, 06:47 that's what I did in the U.S. Congress. 06:49 And there's a lot of important things, 06:51 that we can do it through our foreign policy, 06:53 it's just a matter of whether the American public 06:54 would be engaged with them. 06:56 So most of my background is based on that. 06:58 But I left working for the congressman 07:01 a couple of year ago, 07:02 and I started working for Becket Fund for Religious Liberty. 07:05 And while at the Becket Fund, 07:06 I handled our government relations 07:08 but also our international programs, 07:10 since so we had a program called a 'Legal training institute' 07:13 where we would go into countries that were developing 07:18 new constitutions, or that needed legal support 07:23 on how to change problematic laws 07:25 and we would work with them, 07:27 to help bring in legal expertise on religious freedom. 07:30 Now, how does the Becket Fund, 07:32 we are running out of time, so I need to get the questions. 07:34 Yeah, sorry. I will give you aggressively there. 07:37 How does the Becket Fund choose cases, 07:40 what's the mechanism? 07:42 I know things are popping up all the time. 07:43 But like the Supreme Court, 07:45 I'm sure, you have to choose them, 07:46 otherwise you'd be busy, with you know, teams of hundred 07:50 or thousand, rather much you have. 07:51 Right, I mean, it's really based on the issues there at hand 07:57 and just been strategic enough to identify 07:59 what an important case would be 08:01 and how it will impact the first amendment, 08:03 but internationally we don't do a lot of litigation. 08:06 We, with the Becket Fund, had taken 08:11 a case to Indonesian Supreme Court. 08:12 Well, they haven't taken the case but they have offered 08:14 a brief in the Indonesian Supreme Court 08:17 to try to challenge the blasphemy law in Indonesia 08:20 and it was unsuccessful, but I guess that kind of brings me 08:23 to the next piece of work that I've been working 08:27 on which is really a social media initiative 08:30 and what I've realized is that, you can't-- 08:32 the reason we don't litigate, the Becket Fund 08:34 didn't litigate in foreign countries that much is because, 08:37 international legal structures are just so different, 08:40 and you can't operate in them the same way 08:42 that you can operate in United States. 08:43 So they did a lot of work 08:44 at the European Court of Human Rights, 08:46 which was really, you know, useful 08:49 because there is a structure in place. 08:51 And--but internationally it's just very different. 08:53 So all we realize is that, you can't win over the court of law. 08:57 Many of these countries don't even have the court of law. 08:59 Can I interject something here? Sure. 09:01 As an Adventist in far flung country from the U.S 09:05 and I won't name it, I don't want to give the details 09:08 but he is in prison on a, on a nefarious charged 09:12 that has probably because of his religious affiliation 09:16 but he's been in jail for nearly a year without trial 09:20 and we've made some representation 09:21 and one of the judges said, 09:23 well, just because you're complaining 09:24 and making life difficult, we'll keep him for six more years. 09:27 Now that's not a legal system you can deal with it. 09:30 So it varies and I think that's out there one. 09:32 No, that's very rare. 09:33 But even Australia where I come from, 09:35 you know, has certain commonalties with the U.S. 09:37 but it is more on the British system rather than this 09:41 and then the French system. Yeah. 09:42 You presume more, you pretty much 09:44 have to prove your innocence, 09:46 not that has to be proven that you're not guilty. 09:50 Lincoln, I completely agree with you. 09:51 I think that, it's important to recognize 09:53 when the court of law isn't effective. 09:56 You have to galvanize public support 09:57 through the court of public opinion 09:59 and so what we see around the world is that 10:03 if you can't get that public support, 10:05 you'll never affect the legal, policy changes 10:07 that we need to actually have religious freedom. 10:09 At the end of the day, changing public opinion 10:12 is what's it all about. 10:13 Law is just a reflection. 10:14 Right, absolutely. Of a group opinion. 10:17 Yeah, so what I've been doing for the last 10 years, 10:21 I guess now in this field, is trying to identify 10:24 not just individual cases, but how can we get 10:26 to the root of these problems and really find ways 10:29 of changing way people think, 10:31 and feel and belief about religious freedom. 10:33 I obviously got to share some today 10:35 about how I was inspired to work on this issue. 10:37 But ideally I want other people to be inspired, 10:41 to care about religious freedom and to see it 10:44 as one of the most foundational human rights 10:46 that we have as well. 10:47 And so, you know, I just didn't, 10:50 I'm glad that I was able to share that with you 10:52 and I hope that inspires some of you listeners today. 10:57 Not too long ago, I spend very useful afternoon 11:00 going around from office to office in the Senate 11:03 and the congressional offices in Washington D.C., 11:06 knocking on the door, coming in and announcing our dinner 11:10 and asking for the appropriate staff, 11:13 to pass on the invitation to the senator or the congressman. 11:17 Something that struck me, as I came in the door 11:19 with those bright, excited, involved young faces. 11:25 Its this picture everywhere, there are young people 11:28 in U.S. government, that are bright 11:31 and intelligent and committed. 11:33 And as we had this program with Tina Ramirez, 11:37 she is a young woman who has dedicated her life 11:40 not just to government service and to civil service 11:44 but to religious liberty. 11:46 Someone with the Christian commitment 11:48 and when we apply our Christian sensibilities to an effort 11:54 in government service or civil service 11:56 or the community service, it has the strength 11:59 and an efficacy that go way beyond just doing good deeds, 12:03 filling an office space or drawing a salary. 12:07 It's their commitment to spiritual integrity 12:10 that will make the difference in the world 12:12 or ours that so much needs help. 12:16 For Liberty insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2014-12-17