Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
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We had a short break
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and we need to continue
this discussion with Tina.
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I found it very
interesting, so interesting
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that I let it slide a
little on the first half
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and it went
longer than necessary,
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so we would have to move along,
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I know you have a
very interesting life,
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I read your, it's
not your full life
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but your bio-curriculum
vitae or whatever.
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And I know you had
some interesting assignments
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right up to the present.
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So, you know, way to from
the international commission,
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from the U.S. Commission,
rather, on religious freedom,
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where did you from there?
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Yeah, so after I
worked at the commission,
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I was recruited to come work for
a congressman in a fellowship,
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where I focused solely on
international religious freedom,
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and I did that for four years,
and I was the only staffer
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up there at the time,
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that worked solely
on religious freedom.
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There was another
person there right
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when I got there and
she left soon afterwards.
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But it was really a great
time, because I got to build
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the International
Religious Freedom Caucus,
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that's in Congress.
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And at the time, the
congressman had started it
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with congressman, Emanuel
Cleaver from Kansas City,
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and yeah, so it
was a bipartisan Caucus
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and they only had a handful
of members and they brought me
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into basically
build this caucus up.
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Well, they have
over 60 members now,
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but they had
over 50 when I left,
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and it was
completely bipartisan,
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half republicans, half
democrats and the goal was that,
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prior to the
caucus being formed,
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religious freedom really wasn't
a relevant issue in Congress.
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The International
Religious Freedom Act, of 1998
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had passed but since
then it kind of repeated out
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in its interest
level on the hill,
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so my job was to
make it interesting
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to democrats and republicans
and not just to Christians
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but to people of all faiths,
and so we defended everybody
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and I mentioned the case that we
worked on in a previous episode
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of Kareem Abdul Amer,
the blogger from Egypt.
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And what we did was simply
worked to help defend people
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that are imprisoned and change
laws and policies in countries
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to ensure that
U.S. foreign policy
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really this matter of concern.
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Now how does the U.S. affect
other countries statements
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of their own
citizens on religious freedom.
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I mean, how can U.S.
focus on religious freedom--
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No, it's a good question.
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Well, I guess one example
was, we held a hearing on Egypt.
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And we had the, at the time the,
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he was the dean of
Yale Law School, Harold Koh,
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but prior to that he
was the assistant secretary
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for the
Department for Human Rights
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at the state
department and then since then,
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he was the head legal
council for the state department
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and a secretary to Clinton.
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So we had him testify as well
as a number of other communities
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about the religious
persecution occurring in Egypt.
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And this was back in 2007.
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Well, because of all the
work that we did on Egypt,
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we also introduced legislation
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to withhold
foreign aid from Egypt.
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Now I know that's
happened recently,
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but this is back in 2007, when
it wasn't really a hot topic.
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But we introduced a
resolution that I wrote
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that would have withheld aid,
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if they were going to
continue persecuting people.
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And the Egyptians took notice
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because they received
50, I think, 50 billion.
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It's a huge amount.
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Some huge amount,
annually. I know it's billions.
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Yeah, 50 million, and I forget
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and it was 50
billion over this--
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Yes, but not
necessarily over year.
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I think I am sorry, it was like
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1.25 billion a year
something ridiculous.
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But they--because they were
so concerned about their money,
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that they felt
like was their money,
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not the American
tax payers money.
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They called me into
their office and they said,
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Tina, what is this?
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I just saw this on the TV,
the congressman was on the floor
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and he was
introducing this resolution.
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What does this mean for our aid?
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And I said, well, you know,
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hopefully we'll
get to cut your aid,
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because you are
persecuting people.
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So they definitely
paid attention and then--
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I can tell you,
they're tough to deal.
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Yeah, not an easy
one, they were, yeah.
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Yeah, and they--
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But let me tell you one
reason, it's in the background
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Hillary Clinton spoke it on
Religious Liberty dinner once,
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said some really good things.
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But I was mystified
once, not too long ago,
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before she left
the state department.
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She went to China and she told
them that their relationship
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was so important
that, the civil rights
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and things like
that were secondary.
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The human rights were off
the table, that's what she said.
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That was one of the--
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I rather regret, I'm not sure--
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Yeah, that was regrettable
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and now that's one of
the first things she said,
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when she, one of her
first visits was to China
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and it was the first bilateral
discussion they had in Suzhou,
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made it only about economics
and not about religious freedom,
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which is a huge problem,
because there are many American,
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Christian
businesses operating in China
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to help the Chinese economy,
not for any other reason,
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and if you don't have a
religious freedom there,
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then they would be able
to offer their services,
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I mean, there are
many humanitarian groups
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that operate in China, that are
just doing it for free, freely.
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I think that was
just a huge misstep,
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and I think it was out of sync
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with of from what
the U.S. has done. Yeah.
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It has used its
influence and its aid in
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and so on that
leave us to get some--
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Well, I had to say that,
that there are leverage points
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that we have and aid
was one of them with Egypt
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and of course now,
that's a little different
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but it depends on which
country you're working in
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or you're dealing within
and what the leverage points are
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but Egypt was very
concerned and so they actually
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put me on a Mica trip,
a government sponsor trip
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and to Egypt and I met
with a lot of people there.
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Interestingly
enough though when I was,
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meeting with, we would have
our meetings as part of the trip
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and at night I would meet
with all of these other people
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to find out what's
really happening in Egypt.
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Because they wine and dine,
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you know they want to
make it seem as though,
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you know it's a great country
and there's no problems there.
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And as I was meeting with one
of the top human rights leaders
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in the country,
with two different women
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that had twins, twins,
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that were in
court threatened with,
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remove all their
children from their home
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because their husbands
have both converted to Islam,
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and so the courts were
going to take them away.
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This is a huge problem, custody
cases concerning religions.
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And so when I was
meeting with them,
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the state security called the
lawyer on the phone and said,
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why are you there
meeting with Tina.
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So they knew who,
they knew where I was,
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who I was meeting with and
they were monitoring everything.
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And later when the
Egyptian authorities came to DC
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and met with us
and were offended by
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some other legislation
that we've introduced.
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They wanted to know,
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they wanted to
make it seem as though,
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they are great
country, and I said,
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but I was there and I know that
you are monitoring everything.
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Anyway, there are leverage
points in different countries,
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it just depends, so
for number of years,
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that's what I did
in the U.S. Congress.
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And there's a lot
of important things,
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that we can do it
through our foreign policy,
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it's just a matter of
whether the American public
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would be engaged with them.
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So most of my
background is based on that.
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But I left working
for the congressman
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a couple of year ago,
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and I started working for Becket
Fund for Religious Liberty.
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And while at the Becket Fund,
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I handled our
government relations
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but also our
international programs,
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since so we had a program called
a 'Legal training institute'
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where we would go into
countries that were developing
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new constitutions, or
that needed legal support
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on how to
change problematic laws
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and we would work with them,
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to help bring in legal
expertise on religious freedom.
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Now, how does the Becket Fund,
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we are running out of time,
so I need to get the questions.
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Yeah, sorry. I will
give you aggressively there.
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How does the
Becket Fund choose cases,
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what's the mechanism?
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I know things are
popping up all the time.
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But like the Supreme Court,
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I'm sure, you
have to choose them,
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otherwise you'd be busy,
with you know, teams of hundred
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or thousand,
rather much you have.
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Right, I mean, it's really based
on the issues there at hand
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and just been
strategic enough to identify
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what an important case would be
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and how it will
impact the first amendment,
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but internationally we
don't do a lot of litigation.
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We, with the
Becket Fund, had taken
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a case to
Indonesian Supreme Court.
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Well, they haven't taken
the case but they have offered
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a brief in the
Indonesian Supreme Court
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to try to challenge the
blasphemy law in Indonesia
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and it was unsuccessful, but
I guess that kind of brings me
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to the next piece of
work that I've been working
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on which is really a
social media initiative
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and what I've
realized is that, you can't--
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the reason we don't
litigate, the Becket Fund
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didn't litigate in foreign
countries that much is because,
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international legal structures
are just so different,
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and you can't
operate in them the same way
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that you can
operate in United States.
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So they did a lot of work
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at the European
Court of Human Rights,
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which was
really, you know, useful
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because there is a
structure in place.
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And--but internationally
it's just very different.
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So all we realize is that, you
can't win over the court of law.
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Many of these countries don't
even have the court of law.
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Can I interject
something here? Sure.
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As an Adventist in far
flung country from the U.S
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and I won't name it, I
don't want to give the details
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but he is in prison on
a, on a nefarious charged
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that has probably because
of his religious affiliation
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but he's been in jail for
nearly a year without trial
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and we've made
some representation
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and one of the judges said,
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well, just
because you're complaining
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and making life difficult, we'll
keep him for six more years.
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Now that's not a legal
system you can deal with it.
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So it varies and I
think that's out there one.
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No, that's very rare.
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But even
Australia where I come from,
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you know, has certain
commonalties with the U.S.
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but it is more on the
British system rather than this
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and then the
French system. Yeah.
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You presume
more, you pretty much
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have to prove your innocence,
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not that has to be
proven that you're not guilty.
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Lincoln, I
completely agree with you.
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I think that, it's
important to recognize
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when the court of
law isn't effective.
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You have to
galvanize public support
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through the
court of public opinion
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and so what we see
around the world is that
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if you can't get
that public support,
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you'll never affect
the legal, policy changes
00:10:05.35\00:10:07.82
that we need to
actually have religious freedom.
00:10:07.85\00:10:09.84
At the end of the day,
changing public opinion
00:10:09.87\00:10:12.56
is what's it all about.
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Law is just a reflection.
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Right, absolutely.
Of a group opinion.
00:10:14.71\00:10:17.05
Yeah, so what I've been
doing for the last 10 years,
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I guess now in this
field, is trying to identify
00:10:21.26\00:10:24.69
not just individual
cases, but how can we get
00:10:24.72\00:10:26.77
to the root of these
problems and really find ways
00:10:26.80\00:10:29.60
of changing way people think,
00:10:29.63\00:10:31.21
and feel and belief
about religious freedom.
00:10:31.24\00:10:33.25
I obviously got
to share some today
00:10:33.28\00:10:35.06
about how I was
inspired to work on this issue.
00:10:35.09\00:10:37.95
But ideally I want
other people to be inspired,
00:10:37.98\00:10:41.73
to care about
religious freedom and to see it
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as one of the most
foundational human rights
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that we have as well.
00:10:46.26\00:10:47.71
And so, you know, I just didn't,
00:10:47.74\00:10:50.89
I'm glad that I was
able to share that with you
00:10:50.92\00:10:52.39
and I hope that inspires
some of you listeners today.
00:10:52.42\00:10:54.59
Not too long ago, I
spend very useful afternoon
00:10:57.52\00:11:00.83
going around from
office to office in the Senate
00:11:00.86\00:11:03.50
and the congressional
offices in Washington D.C.,
00:11:03.53\00:11:06.89
knocking on the door, coming
in and announcing our dinner
00:11:06.92\00:11:10.31
and asking for
the appropriate staff,
00:11:10.34\00:11:13.29
to pass on the invitation to
the senator or the congressman.
00:11:13.32\00:11:17.18
Something that struck
me, as I came in the door
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with those bright,
excited, involved young faces.
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Its this picture everywhere,
there are young people
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in U.S.
government, that are bright
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and intelligent and committed.
00:11:31.35\00:11:33.53
And as we had this
program with Tina Ramirez,
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she is a young woman
who has dedicated her life
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not just to government
service and to civil service
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but to religious liberty.
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Someone with the
Christian commitment
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and when we apply our Christian
sensibilities to an effort
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in government
service or civil service
00:11:54.29\00:11:56.62
or the community
service, it has the strength
00:11:56.65\00:11:59.19
and an efficacy that go way
beyond just doing good deeds,
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filling an office
space or drawing a salary.
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It's their commitment
to spiritual integrity
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that will make the
difference in the world
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or ours that so much needs help.
00:12:12.87\00:12:16.43
For Liberty insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:12:16.46\00:12:19.38