Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is the program that
brings you up to date news,
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views,
discussion and information
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you many not have thought about
on religious liberty issues.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
Editor of Liberty Magazine.
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And my special guest on
this program is Tina Ramirez.
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Welcome, Tina.
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Thank you, Lincoln.
It's nice to here with you.
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Yeah. Good to have
you on this program.
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I had many guests
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and you're one of the
most knowledgeable I've had.
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Thank you. I've lots
to live up to today then.
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Yes, I hope so.
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And I want to find out
why you're so knowledgeable.
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Oh, okay.
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I can give you a
title for this program
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because I want to find out,
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something about your
life and where you come from,
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where you're going
and what you're doing now.
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So you can explain everything.
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You are a familiar face to me
in the religious liberty circles
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or religious liberty
activism circles in Washington.
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Where should we start?
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I don't know.
Look into that area.
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You don't have
to start, you know,
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what was it, Charles Dickens,
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that's one of his
novels,' I was born.
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Yeah, I know. You don't
have to go back that far.
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Good, I'm glad.
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But, you know,
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how did you get into
this religious liberty area?
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What was moving in
your mind as a young person?
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No, no, I think that's okay.
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We took a program on young
people in religious liberty,
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you must have started that way.
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Yeah, when I was in college,
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I started reading about
lot of different missionaries
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and my faith was growing,
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and at the time as
I was reading about,
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people like Amy
Carmichael in India,
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and Elisabeth Elliot
and her husband Jim Elliot
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who was murdered
by the Quichua Indians
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down in Ecuador and just
these amazing stories of faith
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and of struggle and of people
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that really counted the
cross upon Christ lived it out.
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I, my own faith was
strengthened by it and I,
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at the time I was going to
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Vanguard University
in southern California,
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which is a small
sublease of Guard school
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and I was learning about
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a lot of
different world religions
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and also about the
persecution of Christians
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in many different
countries around the world.
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At that time, I mean,
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now the ancient
persecution is different.
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Yeah, this is in
really 90s so at that time,
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one of the biggest stories
was what was happening in Sudan.
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And I actually I just got back,
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from working with some
Sunnis recently and I just--
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Problem is not solved. No, no.
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It's still ongoing, but my heart
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has always been
burdened for them,
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and so really how I
got started was that,
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at that time as I
was reading these stories
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and my own faith was deepening.
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I just-- God
just put on my heart
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the persecution of
people in the church
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and called me to really
desire to work with them
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and to help them
and stand with them.
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I remember one
story in particular
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in the chapel
service at Vanguard,
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of this girl in
China, who'd been imprisoned,
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and she could've just
sat in her cell all day
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but she had become a believer
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and she wanted above all else,
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just to share the
gospel with other people.
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So she asked the prison guard,
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if she could go around to
the different prison cells
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and collect the human
excrement from their cells,
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so that she could--
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Was an excuse to go there
and be able to talk to them.
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Yeah, so that she talk to them
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and so she would
go from cell to cell
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just sharing her faith.
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And I thought, wow,
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here I grew up in
Orange County, California,
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no hardship and here's a
your girl in China imprisoned,
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and all she wants to do is,
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pick up human feces
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in order to share the
gospel with other people.
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Incredible. Yeah.
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And if she could take
such a risk for her faith,
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and if it meant so much to her,
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then surely my faith
should mean just as much to me
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and I should be
willing to go to that length
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at least to help other
people that have been persecuted
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and to with the
freedom that I have
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and to stand up for them
when they don't have somebody
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standing up for them
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or when they can't
stand up for themselves.
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You know, this most visceral
thought that illustrates
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what I've always thought about
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church growth
and evangelization.
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Plenty of people go to seminars,
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and they plot and they plan
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and it's always
been on that level.
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An individual person telling
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what's happened in
their life that has power.
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And the person
that's really been changed
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will go to any
length to tell someone else
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an amazing thing
that's happened in their life.
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Yeah, but I can say that
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I wouldn't necessarily
wish suffering on anyone,
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and I know that
there's the common phrase that,
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the seed of the martyr is the--
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The blood of the martyrs
is the seed of the church.
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Yeah. But--
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Which is
interred by the way. Yeah.
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It just hit me,
that's an interesting spin,
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or may be it's the, the
other spin was the other way
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and on Thomas
Jefferson's comment
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about a blood of a few
revolutionaries is necessary
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for the tree of liberty.
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Yeah, definitely different.
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But now it's only by sacrifice
that any real endeavor,
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big endeavor
worthwhile accomplishing
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is carried forward.
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So I was inspired as
a young college student.
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And I knew that it was
a matter of faith for me
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and of principle or something
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God was
specifically calling me to.
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And I, we're all
called to different things
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and that just happened
to be what God called me to.
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And so after I left Vanguard,
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I studied at the
International Institute
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for Human Rights in
France, in Strasbourg, France,
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which is where
the European Court
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of Human Rights is.
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And I had a
professor there who has become
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just a great friend and mentor,
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we co-authored
this encyclopedia of
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human rights of U.S.
together recently in.
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He taught me,
not just human rights
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but also a specific
course on religious freedom
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and he was teaching at a
law school at the time so,
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I was here an undergrad
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that was just fresh
out of college taking
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this law school course
but we became great friends
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and I was so
inspired by just the stories
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and the passion
that he portrayed
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on how we can use religious
freedom in International law,
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that advocate
for the protection of
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individuals around the world,
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especially for the
Christians that were suffering.
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So I was really inspired
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and I went on
to become a teacher
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and I taught in
Southern California but--
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What grade did you teach?
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Well, I taught
junior high in high school,
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so I taught the hard ones, yeah.
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But I loved it.
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The ones that don't want to be--
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But you know
what's funny is that
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I taught, 8th
grade, U.S. History
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and so we taught
the constitution,
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of course they
are bored to death.
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But when I did a special course
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on human rights it was
like, a light bulb went off.
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And I had this one young boy,
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it was prior to 9/11
and he was from Afghanistan
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and he would go
around beating people up
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in the hallways and so
for the human rights project,
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everybody got to choose
what topic of human rights
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they wanted to take,
whether it's child trafficking
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or the treating of
orphans and eastern Europe
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or whatever they wanted.
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So what did this young man did?
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Yeah, well, he
didn't get a trace,
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I ended up deciding for him,
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and I decided that he
would deal with women's rights
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in Afghanistan,
because I wanted to make sure--
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Not something he
would naturally go to.
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Naturally this
little guy that goes around
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beating people up, you know.
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And up from
Afghanistan, that is--
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Yeah, and this is
right at the time,
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prior to 9/11, when the Taliban
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were destroying all
the Buddhist artifacts
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throughout Afghanistan
and all the Buddhist history--
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And beating up
people that flew kites
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or anything like that.
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Yeah, and then they
were publicly stoning women
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and so he took this topic,
and by the end of the program,
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and I was doing his
part of my master's thesis
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and dissertation,
so I had to assess,
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prior to the study
and after the study,
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how their ideas changed about
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religious
freedom and human rights.
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And so the amazing thing
is, at the end of the study,
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this young man
presents his report
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on the women of Afghanistan
and he writes a poem,
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and I still have the
poem and I-I don't know,
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I can't remember, can't
repeat all that for you,
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but part of it, he
said, it was a poem
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that he wrote in a
letter to president Bush.
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And he said,
'Dear, President Bush,
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these women are
like birds in the cage
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and they can't
speak for themselves,
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and they just need
somebody to speak for them.
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Will you let
these women be free,
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and speak for them
and give them a voice?'
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And I thought, wow.
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This little boy used to
go around beating people up,
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was transformed, he
developed empathy for people
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and for the dignity of
women and just human life.
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What do you
think was the catalyst,
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I mean, what really?
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It was the result of
learning about human rights
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that everybody is
born with dignity,
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that we're created
in the image of God
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and that each one of us
is our brother's keeper.
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And that was really the idea.
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Actually when I
first did the study,
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it was right at
the time of the Santa--
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or is it Columbine or Santa,
I forget which one it was,
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the attack at the high school,
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there was one in
Colorado and one in California,
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I forget which one,
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it was back then but
it was I think in 2000.
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It happened with this dressing
at regularity almost. Yeah.
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And so one of my
professor's friend
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from Strasbourg have
come in and spoken something
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about the power of words
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and the power of
just human dignity
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and human life and how,
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really how you treat
an individual human being
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at the very base level
of, walking around campuses
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and whether you're going
to punch him in the face,
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or respect their
opinions and their beliefs,
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and let them express themselves
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as they would with dignity
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versus the very-like
far end to the spectrum,
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where people
are, because of words
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they're offended
and they lash out
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and so you have this
Columbine and Santa massacres
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or at the other end of
the spectrums even further
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where you have such horrible
destruction of human life,
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in places like Afghanistan,
and Iraq and all over the world,
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that we see frequently.
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But I think that
the change for him,
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and for many other students,
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was recognizing that we
live in this little bubble,
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in Orange County, California.
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But that the
world is so much bigger
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and the problems
are so much bigger,
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and the
problems that he thought,
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he experienced is this
just one little student,
00:10:06.41\00:10:08.93
seemed big at the
time but then we realized
00:10:08.96\00:10:11.27
that he was in big problem,
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a lot worse things happening
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and that he could actually do
something to help this people.
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I think that was the
transformative moment.
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Almost sounds like
Casa Blanca, you know that,
00:10:20.14\00:10:22.31
two little
people don't know about
00:10:22.34\00:10:23.74
there are veins in this world.
00:10:23.77\00:10:25.57
So, yeah--
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But, you know there
are plenty of problems
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in Orange County.
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Sure.
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It's not that it's problem free.
00:10:32.43\00:10:33.59
But what you did
was broaden his horizons
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and we need to see the
real-was it Hillary Clinton,
00:10:36.54\00:10:39.98
which people have
made fun of her onward.
00:10:40.01\00:10:41.68
We're a
village, takes a village,
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and we've got a global village,
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and I think
that's part of caring
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for fellow human beings
to see them as all over,
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they're not just
in your neighborhood.
00:10:49.45\00:10:50.82
Yeah.
00:10:50.85\00:10:51.88
The brotherhood of mankind,
00:10:51.91\00:10:53.55
which is not the
same as globalism,
00:10:53.58\00:10:54.87
I think globalism or, you know,
00:10:54.90\00:10:56.98
false attempt to sort of
smooth out the differences
00:10:57.01\00:10:59.87
to create this one
entity is probably doomed it.
00:10:59.90\00:11:03.07
But we need to sense
that we're all creatures
00:11:03.10\00:11:06.06
of the fellow-- you know,
00:11:06.09\00:11:07.12
fellow creatures of a
creator wherever we live.
00:11:07.15\00:11:09.53
Well, I was
inspired by this young man
00:11:09.56\00:11:11.50
and by-by religious
freedom and human rights--
00:11:11.53\00:11:13.73
So your student inspired
you, that's what you said.
00:11:13.76\00:11:15.57
They did, they did.
00:11:15.60\00:11:16.63
Well, I knew
that, I loved teaching,
00:11:16.66\00:11:18.79
I really loved
it but I wanted to
00:11:18.82\00:11:21.89
experience working
in this field myself
00:11:21.92\00:11:24.14
and so I decided to
go, study in England
00:11:24.17\00:11:28.00
at the University
of Essex which is,
00:11:28.03\00:11:29.99
a place where a lot of people
00:11:30.02\00:11:31.42
involved in International
Human Rights have gone
00:11:31.45\00:11:33.84
and even my professor, friend,
00:11:33.87\00:11:35.53
that I had studied
at Strasbourg with him,
00:11:35.56\00:11:37.77
had been there,
00:11:37.80\00:11:38.83
so I studied the International
Human Rights Law there,
00:11:38.86\00:11:41.17
and I learned a
lot about how to defend
00:11:41.20\00:11:45.07
religious freedom
within many different contexts
00:11:45.10\00:11:48.27
and world views and it
was a very good informative
00:11:48.30\00:11:51.61
time for me to
really understand what is
00:11:51.64\00:11:54.20
that I wanted to
do in the future.
00:11:54.23\00:11:55.56
So after I finished at
Essex, I moved to Washington DC,
00:11:55.59\00:11:59.50
so I left
California and I got a job
00:11:59.53\00:12:01.69
with the U.S. Commission on
International Religious Freedom
00:12:01.72\00:12:04.14
where I was able to
work full time on this issue.
00:12:04.17\00:12:06.58
And the neat thing
is, when I was in college,
00:12:06.61\00:12:09.13
I had read,
Paul Marshall's book,
00:12:09.16\00:12:10.73
'Their Blood Cries Out' about
the persecution of Christians.
00:12:10.76\00:12:13.40
And it really inspired me.
00:12:13.43\00:12:14.46
And so when I went to
D.C., I was able to meet Paul
00:12:14.49\00:12:16.58
and we became good
friends since then and,
00:12:16.61\00:12:18.56
he's written so
many books since then,
00:12:18.59\00:12:20.21
which I
encourage people to read.
00:12:20.24\00:12:21.96
He is really just an inspiration
00:12:21.99\00:12:25.09
and he's done a lot to
help people understand--
00:12:25.12\00:12:27.21
I've seen that book but
you reminded me in another era.
00:12:27.24\00:12:30.95
Many
missionaries, because you say
00:12:30.98\00:12:32.20
you're inspired by students.
00:12:32.23\00:12:33.26
Yeah, I know many missionaries
00:12:33.29\00:12:34.60
and great
evangelists are inspired
00:12:34.63\00:12:36.32
by Foxe's Book of Martyrs.
00:12:36.35\00:12:37.75
Yeah, there's something about
00:12:37.78\00:12:39.80
the testimony of
others who have been,
00:12:39.83\00:12:41.59
Polly Karpin. Yes, absolutely.
00:12:41.62\00:12:44.81
And you need to
contemporize a lot of this now
00:12:44.84\00:12:48.42
because right now Christians
00:12:48.45\00:12:50.40
and others of
different religions,
00:12:50.43\00:12:52.48
they're giving their
lives for their faith.
00:12:52.51\00:12:54.40
Yeah. It's not an abstraction.
00:12:54.43\00:12:55.46
I tell, I tell people
when I'm traveling around
00:12:55.49\00:12:58.46
taking meetings on
religious liberty because,
00:12:58.49\00:13:00.82
particularly some
Seventh-day Adventist
00:13:00.85\00:13:02.70
who look at prophecy, you know,
00:13:02.73\00:13:03.88
one day you may be persecuted.
00:13:03.91\00:13:05.74
You know, it's happening now,
00:13:05.77\00:13:07.49
don't wait for
the future, it's now.
00:13:07.52\00:13:09.33
And we need to
respond and support those
00:13:09.36\00:13:11.64
and I could see that it
moved you, just a loose.
00:13:11.67\00:13:14.99
Yeah, yeah.
00:13:15.02\00:13:16.37
So we're next, I am
sorry to interrupted just to--
00:13:16.40\00:13:18.12
No, no.
00:13:18.15\00:13:19.18
It's okay, I
think that, you know,
00:13:19.21\00:13:22.02
there's so much to
talk about but like
00:13:22.05\00:13:23.96
you were just saying,
inspiring young people
00:13:23.99\00:13:26.83
and people of faith
to really count the cost,
00:13:26.86\00:13:28.52
of what is it
that they're believing
00:13:28.55\00:13:30.24
and following is really,
00:13:30.27\00:13:33.22
what is going to
transform their lives
00:13:33.25\00:13:35.74
and their future I think.
00:13:35.77\00:13:38.12
Well, you made
the difference. Yeah.
00:13:38.15\00:13:39.18
We'll be back after a
break to continue this
00:13:39.21\00:13:41.82
very interesting
personal odyssey from Tina,
00:13:41.85\00:13:45.39
to wish she's today,
00:13:45.42\00:13:47.85
is I believe a great
leader for religious freedom.
00:13:47.88\00:13:50.62
We'll be back.
00:13:50.65\00:13:51.90