Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Tina Ramirez
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000214A
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00:22 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:24 This is the program that brings you 00:26 up to date news and views, discussion 00:28 and information on religious liberty issues 00:31 in the United States and indeed around the world. 00:33 These are interesting times 00:35 and this is an interesting topic and I'd like you to join me 00:38 for discussion with Tina Ramirez, my guest. 00:41 Welcome Tina. Thank you, Lincoln. 00:42 It's good to be here with you. 00:43 We could talk about many, many things. 00:46 But let's talk about religious liberty 00:48 and how we get young people in particular 00:51 to buy into an appreciation of religious liberty. 00:54 You know, it's the first freedom 00:56 has been said in the United States. 00:59 If you don't believe in religious liberty 01:00 or don't understand that, 01:02 all civil liberties are at risk. 01:05 How do we get young people, 01:06 the new generation to buy into this? 01:10 That's a really good question. I know that it concerns you. 01:12 I think its a million dollar question. 01:15 It is. And we need to look for that answer. 01:17 Yeah, I mean it's, 01:19 it's obvious that we have a problem 01:20 because the studies have shown recently 01:23 like the Barner Group study most recently that 01:25 religious liberty is not a major issue for young people. 01:28 And they are involved in so many social justice issues, 01:31 why not religious freedom? 01:34 They are involved in clean water projects 01:36 and addressing the AIDS problem in Africa 01:39 and development relief work 01:41 and orphan care and adoptions 01:43 and just about everything, anti-trafficking. 01:46 But religious freedom 01:47 just isn't an issue of social justice concern really. 01:52 Now, you know, I have-- I like to think I'm young 01:55 but I'm probably not young 01:57 by any young person's estimation anymore 01:58 but I remember what it was like. 02:01 And I believe that young people are easily 02:03 and naturally fired up to optimistic endeavors. 02:07 I mean, you know, 02:09 you still have illusions about life. 02:11 You have aspirations, you have big goals 02:13 and you see life in black and white terms more. 02:16 And so this is the age group 02:18 that naturally should be inspired to, 02:22 you know, to join the ranks of those of us 02:24 defending religious liberty. 02:25 And for some reasons they haven't. 02:26 It's not just religious liberty. 02:29 I know and in other groups 02:31 that you meet within different church groups 02:33 and I'm Seventh-day Adventist. 02:35 It's like my church. 02:37 Our young people they might not have left the church per se 02:40 but they haven't bought into any number of programs. 02:43 It's just-- it's not just religious liberty. 02:46 They don't seem to be 02:49 involved in the faith particulars 02:51 certainly not in doctrine. 02:53 They're not organizationally oriented. 02:55 Ah, they like the social aspect of it. 02:59 And they do answer to certain causes 03:02 but religious liberty 03:03 and other things seem to slip through the cracks. 03:06 Yeah, it's true. 03:07 I think that there is a change though 03:09 in this new generation of youth under 25. 03:13 They make up about 50% 03:15 of the world's population right now. It's true. 03:17 So not just in America but all over the world, 03:18 we see a youth bulge 03:20 and if we can't inspire them to care about religious freedom, 03:23 then all of those people that are persecuted 03:24 around the world aren't going to have supporters 03:28 or people that are spokespersons 03:30 for them in the future, advocating for them. 03:33 But not only that, like you've said 03:35 people are not as actively involved 03:39 maybe in their churches or they're leaving their church, 03:41 they think they can do church on their own. 03:43 There's movement away from church and religion 03:47 in a traditional sense unfortunately. 03:50 And so without that community then you have-- 03:56 there's a lot of changes happening. 03:57 And so we have to find ways of addressing that 03:59 to make sure that individuals of faith 04:02 understand the cost of their faith of living it out 04:05 and if the importance of being to freely express their faith 04:08 in public as well as in private. 04:11 But really in public because that's where the issues are. 04:13 And even as you're explaining this something hit me-- 04:15 for many years I have been talking about 04:18 and studying a trend 04:21 in conventional churches toward congregationalism. 04:26 Decentralization where it's just 04:28 the church sort of govern itself. 04:30 But what we're really seeing with the young people 04:32 is the next step from congregationalism 04:34 it's sort of an individualistic approach to faith. 04:38 Yeah, there is definitely a movement away 04:40 from the traditional church structure. 04:43 But with that it comes 04:44 a movement away from the community as well 04:46 which when we're dealing with people around the world 04:48 that are really suffering for their faith. 04:51 Community is one of the most important things for them. 04:52 So they know they're not standing alone 04:55 when they're suffering so much 04:56 and dying and suffering you know for their-- 04:59 When their faith is a life and death choice, 05:01 they want to know that they are not in alone 05:03 that somebody's remembering them. 05:04 Let me throw something in. 05:05 I'm sure you've thought about it 05:06 but probably not ready yet, 05:08 weren't heading that way in our discussion. 05:11 You know, we need young people to be involved 05:13 in religious freedom defending it. 05:15 But let's look at some parts of the world 05:17 like the Palestinians in occupied territories 05:22 as well as even in Boston, 05:25 we've seen young people 05:27 motivated enough to either set a bomb and kill themselves. 05:31 Or to strip a bomb on themselves to give their very life. 05:35 Ah, I think in a extremists tortured version of a faith 05:42 but you must accept there's some sort of idealism there. 05:46 What got them into that which is a wrong end 05:50 but why they and not a young person 05:52 say in a western Christian or even secular context, 05:58 why couldn't they defend this high value. 06:01 What is that this young people 06:03 would have been co-opted into something. 06:05 I mean we definitely see many trends in the world 06:07 but I think of its core, 06:08 the world is becoming more global 06:11 and part of that is that people that are in societies 06:14 where they feel like their religion is under threat 06:17 can become more extreme. 06:20 That's not always the case but it can be 06:22 and so tendency was some extremists is ways to their-- 06:25 but in the US, what we see is a growing secularists mentality 06:31 and a strong cultural pressure, 06:37 sway over the young people in America. 06:40 That even though they're globally minded, 06:43 they're engaged in what's happening internationally 06:45 to some extent and social justice. 06:52 They don't always know 06:54 it's easier to deal with issues like clean water and AIDS 06:57 and people out there that aren't sensitive issues. 07:01 But when it comes to an issue of faith and of religion 07:04 and of certain moral absolutes that gets really murky 07:08 because it's something that challenges the culture 07:10 and for most young people they don't want to 07:12 challenge the culture to join-- They want to fit in. 07:14 Right and so to join the bandwagon on 07:16 and you take trafficking campaign when it's cool. 07:18 You know, that's simple 07:19 but to standup for traditional marriage 07:23 or to standup for the rights of life against abortion, 07:27 which is really what's related to this 07:29 whole healthcare mandate. 07:30 To standup for things like that, 07:33 when they've been so acclimated 07:37 or you know within the culture to say, 07:39 well, everything is okay 07:40 and it's okay for that person to do that. 07:43 They haven't been-- 07:45 they've just been raised in different era 07:46 where they're taught that 07:48 you have to be everything is relative 07:51 and you can't have a more absolute. 07:55 Maybe I'm missing part of what you're saying. 07:57 You're saying that young people, 07:59 we're primarily talking about American I think-- Right, yeah. 08:03 In this situation that they really won't break 08:07 from the group for what other young people are thinking 08:09 and if other young people are moved 08:12 to on water projects and that's fine. 08:14 But they wouldn't take on a project 08:19 that the rest of the group did not. 08:21 Well, I think that what you-- 08:22 I think those are all great projects. 08:24 But the issue is that 08:26 they're not in anyway morally controversial. 08:29 No, no, so is the peer pressure so strong. 08:33 Are they really under peer pressure to conform 08:35 and that it's an acceptable channeling of their idealism 08:41 to do these particular projects you talk about. 08:44 But beyond that they would have to break with peer pressure 08:46 and they're not going to do it. 08:49 I--what I would say is that for 08:52 I don't think that religious freedom 08:53 has been presented in a way that there would be. 08:56 So you think it's an educational problem more than a social. 09:01 Well, there is--I think there's a number of issues there. 09:04 But I think that the there is a great need 09:08 to have a social justice movement 09:09 focused on religious freedom in a way 09:11 that engages young people 09:13 so that they don't feel like 09:15 it's the stepchild of social justice. 09:17 But it's something that culturally relevant 09:19 that everybody can get onboard with. 09:20 And to do that I think that you need to 09:22 get away from focusing on. 09:25 Essentially what you need to do is 09:26 you need to fight religious oppression. 09:28 Everybody is against the oppression through religion 09:31 and through etiologies that are imposed on people. 09:34 And all young people will get behind this idea of, 09:37 yeah, we want to be free to standup 09:39 for whatever we want to be 09:40 and whatever we want to believe. 09:42 But to ask them to defend a religious person 09:47 who doesn't want to take 09:48 contraception or aborficients drugs 09:51 that might be a little bit harder for them. 09:52 That's something or to get them on board 09:54 to say opposing gay marriage. 09:59 That's going to be a lot harder for them 10:01 even if they're religiously inclined. 10:03 Then it is going to be for them to get onboard 10:05 with just opposing religious oppression generally. 10:09 So I think that it's simply that 10:11 we don't have anyone engaged 10:14 in the religious freedom space 10:15 that is speaking in a way that young people will want 10:18 to be involved in that kind of issue. 10:20 And it's not that they aren't interested 10:21 because I have met so many young people 10:24 that they're already engaged with the world. 10:26 There's obviously a limited interest 10:28 amongst them for religious freedom 10:30 but if it was presented in the way 10:33 that they felt was something that was relevant in the world 10:39 and that they could get behind 10:40 and then it wouldn't just be them as religious people 10:42 but that the whole world is behind, I think that we'd see 10:44 a different, a different shift in. 10:45 Yeah, we need to find the answer and I think. Yeah. 10:47 Yeah, obviously you thought long and hard about this. 10:50 But it's problematic to me 10:51 and I don't claim to know the answer. 10:54 Within the Seventh-day Adventist church, 10:55 we're trying very hard, in fact my associate Melissa Reid is 11:00 I assigned her to take on 11:02 our new North American Religious Liberty Association 11:06 which is a membership approach to religious liberty. 11:09 And we're trying to focus on the young people. 11:11 And so this is a direct challenge 11:13 that we're facing, didn't we? 11:14 Haven't really netted through it. 11:16 We're trying to and we've already done one pilot case 11:21 where we take young people from academy or high school. 11:25 They raise some money to be part of an expedition 11:29 from their area to Washington 11:31 to meet politicians, to he would get lectures 11:33 and meet people involved in religious liberty 11:35 to sort of mentor them into it. Yeah. 11:37 But that's a very isolated group but this is the whole, 11:39 I don't really know what captures their imagination. 11:42 I fear-- what I tell you what I fear 11:45 that younger generation whether they're Adventists, 11:48 Catholics or just neutral on religion. 11:52 I fear they're not really tied to absolutes 11:56 and I don't really think religious liberty can flourish 12:00 well if you believe that, you know, I'm okay, 12:02 you're okay it doesn't really matter. 12:04 You know whatever is okay with you 12:05 but I'm not going to 12:06 put myself up to stand for this particular. 12:09 Yeah, and I think-- 12:10 Then it's just sort of an airy-fairy approach. 12:12 And that's a moral problem that our churches 12:14 and our communities need to be stronger 12:16 and standing for what is truth. 12:18 Because ultimately persecution 12:20 is a result of people standing out for a standard 12:22 that the world doesn't like 12:23 and that they find offensive 12:25 and they want to challenge. Yeah. 12:26 But if young people in our churches 12:28 aren't standing up for what is true. 12:30 Then they're never going to really suffer 12:32 anything for their faith. 12:34 But we should as people of faith 12:37 have some kind of resistance, 12:39 if we really are living and speaking truth. 12:42 That's--I mean that just should be 12:43 a natural a part of we are. 12:46 Yes, you know, Paul in I think it's in Hebrews 12:49 where he talks about the faithful through the ages 12:52 that suffered and took consequences for their faith. 12:56 You know, and there's a classic phrase there. 12:58 It says that-it says, "They were burned, 13:00 they were killed, they were sword into." Yeah. 13:03 And it says, "refusing to accept release." 13:06 And I don't think young people as a category 13:09 and by on my observation 13:10 quite understand what's going on there. 13:13 There's always an escape if you want to compromise 13:16 or if you want to fit in. 13:18 But if someone that's determined, refuse 13:21 I believe this and you say this, no. 13:24 I'm going to be faithful to this. 13:26 That takes in certain inflexibility 13:28 and I think you've touched on that, 13:29 that young people are not inclined 13:32 that way anymore as a category. 13:34 They had not been trained that way 13:36 and it comes a bit with experience 13:41 and a mindset the maturity brings to you. 13:43 But there's something going on 13:45 and, you know, both of us are just fishing toward it but it-- 13:49 Yeah, if we don't' solve this soon, 13:52 there's going to be a major problem. 13:54 We need to take a break right now. 13:56 We'll be back in a movement 13:57 and call us if you have the answer 14:00 but we're looking for the answer 14:02 of engaging young people in defending religious liberty. 14:05 We'll be right back. |
Revised 2014-12-17