Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Tina Ramirez
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000213B
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00:06 Welcome back to "the Liberty Insider."
00:09 This is Lincoln steed again with guest Tina Ramirez. 00:12 Before the break, Tina, we were talking about Turkey, 00:16 a pivotal country from history. 00:18 But the present they're certainly, 00:20 where they're undergoing constitutional reexamination, 00:24 that's probably a good way to put up. 00:27 What else can you tell us about Turkey? 00:29 I know you've traveled there a number of times 00:32 and your analysis is pretty much spot on? 00:34 What's happening? 00:35 Yeah, I had mentioned before in another episode 00:38 that I had visited Syria, and I had visited Syria 00:41 a few years ago with the bishop 00:43 from the eastern United States. 00:46 And we had traveled. 00:47 We've driven across into Turkey. 00:49 And we've gone to a place called Mor Gabriel Monastery, 00:52 which gets about 80,000 visitors a year. 00:55 So it's a-- I mean it was the sea 00:57 of the Syriac church for a number of years. 00:59 And it dates back to 300s. 01:01 But interestingly enough the monastery 01:05 has been involved in litigation battle 01:08 with the Turkish government because a local Kurdish leader, 01:11 a local Muslim Kurdish leader, says that the church, 01:14 that the monastery was built on the top of mosque. 01:16 And so-- 01:18 It's usually the other way around, isn't it? 01:19 Yeah, but you can imagine having been built in the three-- 01:22 Three, that's obviously. Three hundreds. 01:23 It's a few hundred year period difference 01:25 between the expansion of Islam. 01:27 Predates, not just the expansion the establishment. 01:30 Yeah, the establishment, right. 01:32 But unfortunately this is really indicative 01:34 of the problems that we have mentioned before 01:37 that are going on throughout Turkey of property rights, 01:40 confiscation of property, registration problems. 01:44 The problems with the training of clergy, 01:47 the training of children in their 01:50 native religious language like Aramaic. 01:52 And so the Mor Gabriel Monastery 01:55 is really someone-- an instance that you don't hear about 02:02 in all of the problems in Turkey, 02:04 but it's really emblematic of all of them. 02:06 And so you hear about the Halki Seminary. 02:08 You hear about the Armenian genocide 02:10 and the Armenian problems not being recognized. 02:12 You hear about the tiny remnant of the Jewish community 02:16 that you have left in Istanbul. 02:17 But you don't hear about the Syriacs. 02:20 And the Syriacs are only about 4,000 people. 02:23 And so the fact that the Syriac church 02:25 of 4,000 people is having its land confiscated 02:28 by the government is absurd. 02:31 And it shouldn't be and even national community 02:33 should recognize this. 02:34 As we discussed, again if this group is taking 02:38 such easy plucking and that they disappear 02:42 or cease to exist as an organized group, 02:44 then it will be the next minority, weren't it? 02:46 It's hardly likely with the dynamic distilled there. 02:49 What affects one affects the others. 02:50 And as we mentioned the Syriac church 02:54 is not recognized minority in Lausanne convention, 02:58 so they don't have any rights. 02:59 So the Jewish community, the Armenians, the Greeks 03:01 supposedly have rights but in reality they don't. 03:04 The Syriacs and the other religious minorities 03:07 that are not listed in Lausanne convention don't have any. 03:10 So it's really fascinating 03:12 that when Chancellor Angela Merkel met with Erdogan 03:15 a couple of months, she spent about 45 minutes 03:18 just focused on the Mor Gabriel monastery and this problem. 03:21 So it's significant enough that the German chancellor 03:23 spend a large percent of her time talking about it. 03:25 Now apart from just general altruism, 03:27 why would she brought it up? What would? 03:30 Well, she has a number Syriac living in Germany 03:34 I believe, but I think she also generally cares about 03:37 religious freedom and recognizes 03:39 that if Turkey is going to advance as a leader, 03:43 a democratic leader, in the free world that it really 03:45 needs to enter bridges divide that we talked about. 03:47 That it needs to take religious minoritiesand their rights 03:49 seriously, especially at this time that they're undergoing 03:52 as constitutional change and process. 03:55 So when she spoke with the prime minister 03:59 and there were a number of minority communities present 04:01 in the meeting including the bishop 04:03 from the Mor Gabriel monastery, they talked about 04:06 a couple of major cases involving the monastery 04:08 and the confiscation of their property. 04:10 There's two major cases. 04:12 One is already at the European Court of Human Rights. 04:15 It's already been appealed and so it's sitting there. 04:17 And it relates to the forestry 04:19 and the land that was confiscated 04:21 by the forestry ministry and the government. 04:23 But there is also another case that many people 04:25 don't know about and that's the case involving 04:27 the treasury and whether the property 04:32 that the monastery has will be confiscated 04:35 by the treasury department, and as it's very complicated-- 04:39 So their problems are many that is not simple, 04:41 not a way to mention. Yeah, it's not. 04:42 And they have three more cases that are going to the process. 04:45 And they're appealing 04:46 to the highest court right now in Turkey. 04:47 And then it's likely that those cases 04:50 will also go to the European Court of Human Rights 04:51 if the government doesn't deal with it. 04:54 The government though, Erdogan could intercede 04:58 right now and simply say 05:00 that the treasury department is wrong. 05:02 That it misconstrued the problem 05:03 and that the monastery has been there for, 05:06 you know, so many years and that-- 05:09 Then we're asked the leading question. 05:11 Is this something the government arbitrarily 05:14 and without much pretext or prefers 05:18 start it on or is there-- 05:20 What is the government interest? 05:21 No, is there a sentiment in the population? Because if-- 05:25 But what's interesting is that-- You know, he could do that, 05:27 but when he do that if it would hurt 05:29 his bonafides within the Islamic majority. 05:32 No, the interesting thing is all of these comes down 05:34 to a local Kurdish leader that I had mentioned a minute ago. 05:37 So it's just simple, just localize it. 05:38 It's a local leader that is, I think friends 05:40 of the prime minister that wants their property. 05:42 It's great property and they want it. 05:45 And so it's actually pretty insidious. 05:48 But the public, interestingly enough, 05:51 when there is, I believe it was CNN Turk report 05:55 on this before I was in Turkey that said, what's big deal? 05:59 Why is the government going after a community 06:01 of 4,000 people to take their ancient monastery, 06:05 the sea of the church? 06:07 I mean why, what is the reason behind this. And Turks-- 06:09 Maybe it's a simple apart from government graft and cronyism. 06:13 It is just grows insensitivity to-- 06:17 Oh, I don't. I think it's a local leader 06:20 that wants-- Who don't care. 06:21 That has a bone to pick with the monastery 06:23 and wants the land and because of that they embroiled 06:26 all the national politics into a controversy. 06:28 It doesn't even need to be one. 06:30 But most of the Turkish people based on the news, 06:32 the interview that was done on the CNN Turk, 06:35 I'm pretty sure that was the radio, the TV station. 06:38 They asked, you know, they're 4,000 people. 06:40 They're not a threat. 06:41 So why are-- why don't you just give them their land? 06:44 Why do you, why are you creating this false conflict? 06:48 And I think that's what Merkel asked as well 06:50 probably in that meeting, although I am not sure 06:52 what happened there. 06:53 But I think that it is a question that many Turks 06:56 are not against the monastery. 06:58 They visited in droves. 06:59 Like I said 80,000 people visit the monastery every year. 07:01 And those aren't just Christians. 07:03 Those are mostly Muslims and Turks and people 07:06 from all over the world that wants to see 07:07 this beautiful monastery and what they've done. 07:10 And they-- the monastery does it off for free. 07:12 They don't charge anybody to come. 07:13 They have, I mean they're the kindest, 07:16 most hospitable people that you'll ever meet. 07:19 And it's a beautiful place that everybody should go and visit. 07:21 Well, let's hope that they will. 07:23 Yeah, I mean really-- 07:25 As you're telling this story, there's an incredible tale 07:27 of grouse prejudice and insensitivity 07:30 towards a very small religious minority. 07:33 But what I was trying to think this seems to have 07:37 these particular things within political cronyism and so on. 07:40 But very often around the world through the ages, 07:43 not just in the modern era, one church or one faith 07:47 will purposely put their temple or religious edifice 07:53 on the place where a competing religion was. 07:55 It isn't by chance. 07:57 It's actually a sign to show dominance. 07:59 Even when I was a kid I could remember stories 08:01 that at time they were explained differently, 08:03 but now I know what was really going on. 08:06 You would often hear that the missionaries 08:07 would go into the south pacific and they'll be forced to build 08:10 their church on the spirit ground 08:15 or the burial ground of the locals. 08:17 I don't think that happened by chance. 08:19 They chose that because you were putting down 08:22 the local Gods by having your church there. 08:26 In Jerusalem, the flash point of everything 08:28 between majorreligions. 08:29 You know, the dome of the rocks 08:31 sits on an ancient Christian cathedral. 08:35 Oh, not cathedral, Christian house of worship. 08:38 In Turkey, the-- what's the big mosque? 08:42 Hagia Sophia Hagia Sophia, yeah, Hagia Sophia 08:44 that was the cathedral. 08:46 That was a Christian cathedral. 08:47 And I have traveled through Spain and I have seen 08:49 the same thing because there was the Muslim conquest 08:52 and then they re-conquest to say you have the alternating 08:55 aspect of some of these houses religion. 08:58 And all of us Muslim, Christian, or whatever, 09:01 we're all stuck with what it is now. 09:02 But people should recognize 09:04 that some of these complications were caused by this very 09:06 conscience dynamic through the ages to assert 09:09 my religion is higher than yours. 09:11 I will show it, show the dominance. 09:13 I will put my church on top of yours or destroy yours, 09:17 some has converted, some has destroyed and replace with mine. 09:19 Right. And so really now what's happening in Turkey 09:22 is that they're having this national dialog about 09:25 the constitution and what they need to get 09:27 to is what will the role of religion 09:28 be in a future of their country? 09:30 So it's very important. 09:31 They can have an Islamic country. 09:32 I mean there're many different models. 09:34 It's their right. I mean. 09:35 If there are many different models 09:36 for constitutions around the world. 09:37 And how they, I mean there're the Islamic governments 09:40 that have Islam as the state religion. 09:41 There're some that don't. 09:43 There're some that recognize-- As long as they allow 09:44 the religions to practice, some people to change their faith. 09:46 Yeah, and I think the big question for Turkey right now 09:49 is will they have that dialog within the society? 09:52 And that's the dialog and discussion 09:53 they need to have because-- it doesn't make sense why religious 09:58 communities like the Syriacs, like the Armenians, 10:00 like the Alawis which are 20% of population in Turkey 10:04 are not allowed to exist as equal citizens 10:07 in the future of this country. 10:09 And so if they're going to deal with the presidency 10:11 and whether they're afraid that the presidency 10:13 might be a presidency for life in Islamic government, 10:15 then they can certainly deal with this idea of the role 10:18 of religion in society and the rights of minorities 10:21 and large minorities like the Alawis. 10:24 So I think that it will be interesting 10:27 to see how Turkey turns out. 10:31 In the west, there's been certain ambivalence to Turkey. 10:34 I know with my Australian origins, 10:36 my country remembers Turkey, the Gallipoli campaign 10:40 and the battle there on the Dardanelles. 10:43 Many Australians lost their lives in fighting the Turks. 10:46 They were beaten off by the Turks by the way. 10:48 As recently as the Cuban missile crisis, 10:53 the issue of arms in Turkey was quite a dispute. 10:56 Kemal Ataturk westernized Turkey and Islamic country 11:01 became a western leaning country and part of a western alliance. 11:05 But today we are seeing the worldwide battle 11:09 between religious sensibilities and poltical 11:13 moderation we fought out. 11:16 It's very important that in this country 11:17 as in all other countries 11:19 religious freedom is transcended. 11:22 That political identity, of course 11:24 will be unique to that country. 11:26 But the religious freedom will be allowed to exist. 11:29 I pray that as Turkey and the neighbors of course 11:32 which are in turmoil move towards 11:34 some sort of greatest self determination, 11:38 but freedom will win out and that the individual citizen 11:42 will able find their spiritual destiny. 11:46 For Liberty Insider this is Lincoln steed. |
Revised 2014-12-17